Let's start 2021 strong with all of the tools you need in your toolkit. Learn the art of negotiation and set & smash your goals for the year ahead.
The following is a transcript taken from episode 12 of the We Talk Cents podcast. The transcript is created by AI software so it might not be perfect - please forgive any imperfections or grammatical errors.
Dan Jovevski, Matt Caruana, Ben Byth, Blaize Pengilly
Blaize Pengilly 00:09
Personal finance, budgeting, cash flow, and investing don't have to be scary words. The We Talk Cents podcast is here to help you learn more about money and take control of your personal finance. This podcast is not a financial advisor. This podcast is made for entertainment and educational purposes only. All information shared is of a general nature and does not take into account your personal situation. You should consider whether the information is appropriate for your needs and where appropriate, seek professional advice from a financial advisor.
Dan Jovevski 00:45
For more information, please check it out We money.com.au/disclaimer. G'day and welcome back to Episode 12 of we talk since a podcast presented by We Money, it's our first show of 2021. And we're super excited to be here. I'm your host and resident finance expert, Dan.
Blaize Pengilly 01:03
And I'm Blaize your host and resident spending addict and not so much a finance expert here to ask Dan the big questions. Dan I am so excited about an episode today because we have not one but two very, very special guests joining us. First of all, we have been Ben Byth who is the principal negotiation consultant at Scotwork Australia. And he is joining us to talk about negotiation. And then we have Matt Caruana joining us to talk about goal setting and creating a vision for yourself and setting goals to work towards that. So really helping out in the start of the year mind frame. I guess it's about setting 2021 strong with all the tools that you need in your toolkit. And yeah, making it the best year yet.Dan, Christmas been and gone? How is your Christmas? How did you spend it? And also, you know, a four days into the new year. Have you got any new year's resolutions? What are you aiming towards this year? And do you do New Year's resolutions?
Dan Jovevski 02:09
Blaize? really great question Christmas was absolutely awesome. I didn't do much. I stayed at home did a lot of housework and just took some time off. I think it was good to decompress for a year it was I think I don't know how you felt. But I think this year for us. I think everyone was tired of jumping on zoom meetings and putting on your zoom face. It was good to not have to present yourself in a work setting for once, which was really nice. Planning ahead for the year. Yes, absolutely. Me and my wife have a ritual every single year we head down to the beach here at Cottesloe in Perth. We pull out our foldable chairs, look towards the ocean, reflect on the year that was and plan the year ahead. And I've got to say it's so true and so corny. But oh my goodness, it has paid off in more ways than one.
Blaize Pengilly 02:59
Is this is scene from the notebook? Or is this something you're doing your actual life?
Dan Jovevski 03:04
Sadly, you know what people often say, Oh, my God, you guys actually do that? And the answer is yes. And the only reason why we do it is because we found it to be incredibly effective. And I think for us, it's you know, brought us together closer in terms of our own relationship, but also helped us focus on some of our team goals that we have as a as a couple. And that's been the biggest unlock in my life, even the last two, three years going through that process. And I'm really looking forward to to doing that again, very soon. Blaize we've got something really exciting that we're excited to also share, which is that if you are interested in planning for your New Year's is that we money has released a year planning guide that can help you set your goals not only with your finances, but also your personal life. And we'll talk about more than a bit. But before we get to that, how about you How was Chrissy and what's in store for 2021 for you Blaize?
Blaize Pengilly 04:01
My Christmas was a lot of fun. I did exactly what I wanted to do, which was spent pretty much all of my time at the beach. And when I wasn't at the beach, I was cruising up and down the coast in my car windows down, building out some bangers having a great time just singing my heart out or swimming my heart out. So I really really enjoyed the break and you're feeling very refreshed and excited to start the new year. And I know I gave you I tease you a little bit with your goal setting with your wife. I think that's actually really sweet. A really nice idea. And yeah, I also like to set goals at the start of each year. I actually do with my friends I've been doing it for about six years now we have a gratitude and goals session. Yet we'll all meet have a bit of a picnic in some beautiful location. But it'll be beside a river wherever it is. And we'll all sit down and share as a as a community. What we're grateful for this year. And then also set some goals for the year ahead. And what I really liked about it this year was that it was so special because although 2020 was really not what anyone expected, it was really nice that when we did the gratitude part of the session, we were really able to everyone was still able to think of something they were grateful for, or some sort of good thing that came out of 2020. So yeah, I really, really appreciated that.
Dan Jovevski 05:27
That's awesome, that's fantastic. Blaize, what we've also got is, we know that people find it very difficult to go through the process of planning the year ahead, and will credit your away money is what we're calling the way many year planner that allows you to do exactly what we've just spoken about. Reflect on the year that was and then plan the year ahead. All the things that you're grateful for all your plans, goals and ambitions. We've got something for everybody in terms of your financial goals, your savings goals, your debt reduction goals, and we think you really like it,
Blaize Pengilly 06:02
DanI didn't know about this. This is a nice little, I guess like Christmas surprise. I wish I'd had this before I before I did my goal setting session. What can you expect to see in the year planner, and how is it laid out?
Dan Jovevski 06:15
Firstly, it starts off with reflecting on the year that was so reflecting in your personal life, your relationships with people thinking about what were some of your big significant achievements or items in say, your work your study or your profession, thinking about the things that really bring you the most enjoyment about your own belongings, we know that we're, you know, maybe material possessions, don't give us belongings, but sometimes it could be something really small, that can give you a lot of value in your life, you're incredibly grateful for things of an emotional or spiritual level that you may have connected with over the course of the year ahead. And then you take that same concept, and then think about what is 2021 going to fulfill in these say 10 key categories of my life? And what are some of the things that I can really strive for to achieve. Because as Matt is going to walk us through year planning and goal planning is the most important thing is writing it down. And sometimes I don't know about you Blaize but often find the good old pen. I know that we don't like to cut down a lot of trees. But sometimes I think it's lovely, that Tad little bit worth it. When you've got something you can touch you can feel and you can keep around just forever in that top drawer that you can whip out any time and reflect on how you progress through life. I think they were going to be excited by it and realise it's not too late. You can do it again, you can go for seconds.
Blaize Pengilly 07:37
All right. Well, I will be looking at that. If we want to take a look at the way money year in review, or the yearly planner, I should say, Where Where would I find is?
Dan Jovevski 07:46
wemoney.com.au And you should see it on the front website. But if it's not there, for whatever reason, just head to the money.com/earplanner, and you'll be able to download it absolutely for free.
Blaize Pengilly 08:00
Okay, great. And we'll Chuck a link up on our Instagram as well. So you'll be able to find it there. Okay, enough about goals and resolutions for now. Dan, let's get into the episode and chat to Ben.
Dan Jovevski 08:11
Let's do is Blaize
Blaize Pengilly 08:16
Dan, I would like to know what is a skill that you wish you'd learned at a younger age? That would really improve the way that you can attack a new Year.
Dan Jovevski 08:30
Why is the older that I guess I'm well into my 30s now and you wake up every single day with a few new critics on the back in the elbow feeling a lot Sora I think I could have done a lot more sport in my younger years and become a lot more, move more more up and about. And I think I'm paying for that now. So if I could rewind the clock, I would love to have done a little bit more physical activity because I think it's starting to creep in.
Blaize Pengilly 08:56
Well, it's not too late. January you can you can make a new resolution. Yeah. Something that I would really like to learn, which I'm very excited about to learn about today is the art of negotiation. Because negotiation is a skill that appears in so many different aspects of your life. It's not just in job interviews or negotiating a raise. It's in deciding what you want to do or go on a family holiday or what you're having for dinner. If you're the friend, your friend, your partner, whoever you're eating is doesn't want what you want, like negotiation is such a skill that's so transferable to so many different topics, which is why I'm so excited to discuss it today to help ourselves and those listening really start 2021 with their best foot forward. So today's guest is a specialist in negotiation skills training and negotiation strategy consulting. His background is in sales working both locally and internet In the banking, insurance, airlines, professional services and resources industries, His focus is leadership development and strengthening relationships using collaborative negotiation skills. He's completed a Postgraduate Diploma of psychology at the Queensland University of Technology. And now he's the principal consultant at Scotwork Australia, located in Brisbane. He joins us now via the magic of the internet. Welcome, Ben. Byth.
Ben Byth 10:26
Yeah, very well. Thanks, Blaize. I'm very excited to be here. Because, as you said, it's a life skill. And I gotta say, I'm with Dan as well, I think I've done a bit more exercise in my early years, I'd have more energy to negotiate. So I probably am excited to be here and talking about negotiation, the short,
Blaize Pengilly 10:48
Ben what is your role as a principal negotiation consultant entail?
Ben Byth 10:54
It's a love it to be a little bit more like suits and Harvey specter. But what I ended up doing is two things, all around negotiation. But part of my time was spent working with individuals and companies around building their skill set and the way that skill set embeds within their organization. So process, and capability. But the other part of it is then actually taking those skills and applying them in the marketplace, either in the background and helping my customers, you know, prepare and pressure testing their preparation, their strategy, or even actually going and sitting on behalf of them at the table or with them at the negotiating table. And that's quite fascinating, because not only am I a negotiation, preacher, you know, I'm more than that, because I'm actually going out into the marketplace and practicing what I preach. So I rather enjoy when people push back on me and say, I'm not sure it would work like that. Because there's generally countless stories that we can explore. I've tried it and parts that have been challenging, and other parts have been really easy. And we kind of work through how it would work or how it would work in their industry. So yeah, practitioner rather than just a preacher.
Dan Jovevski 12:01
That's amazing, and it's great that you're, you know, you get some skin in the game, and you actually do it. And that's really good. Instead of being at the academic end, and being at the practical end, which is awesome. How important is it for people to work on this skill called negotiation? And then how do we do it?
Ben Byth 12:20
It's something that, you know, if you've got children down your kids,
Dan Jovevski 12:24
I've got a three and a half year old knows, I was just gonna say that. One, the one thing I do know about negotiation that I've heard before is that you don't negotiate with terrorists, and you don't negotiate with three and a half year olds.
Ben Byth 12:37
The other thing that's really exciting about it is we were all pretty good at it when we were three and a half 4,5,6. And then something shifted, and you know, our parents and our teachers tried to beat it out of it. And this is what I find particularly fascinating. You know, we're born innately as great negotiators, we know what it is that we want. We're not afraid to ask for it. And we're not prepared to take no for an answer. I'll take it down. When you're young one at three and a half. You say no to them. They don't just accept it and go yesterday?
Dan Jovevski 13:05
Of course not. I don't think I've ever heard those words been
Ben Byth 13:10
modified to start testing for flexibility. And no, now there's better ways of bringing your power to the table and throwing yourself on the supermarket floor in response for not getting what you want. But, you know, our parents and our teachers get really frustrated with us. So they start saying things like, you'll do it because I told you, you know, or their model, persuasion, and debating, and maybe a bit of problem solving. And and by the time we're teenagers, we've had it beaten out of us, either we're used to getting what we want by behaving badly. And that won't work for us in the workplace, or in relationships, or we're used to being submissive, you know, let me give persuasion, a bash. And if it doesn't work, I'm just going to move on and be happy with what I've got or resentful about it. But accepted all the way. Right. So to me, it's quite interesting that we're born great at this skill over time. And it's not a particularly complicated skill, it's easy to negotiate, requires a bit of discipline and process to do it well. And it's quite easy to bring somebody back up to skill, but we're quite discouraged by the time we leave school leave University. So yeah,
Blaize Pengilly 14:12
interesting. So Ben you train a lot you trained 1000s of people a year in the art of negotiation. What are the common themes you see recurring when you're training people to become better at negotiating, other than the becoming submissive or throwing themselves?
Ben Byth 14:30
And I think the big thing is, most people don't really know what negotiating is. I did a gig at Brisbane Grammar School a couple of years ago for their prefects. And one of the questions they had is I'm not really sure what you mean when you say negotiating, right? So people tend to think of being a strong negotiator. A tough negotiator is being able to say no to somebody and what it is that they want. And the really enlightening bit is to actually rather than try and say no to somebody, it's it's far more skilful to say yes Say yes in such a way that you don't get punished or don't get hurt yourself. because anybody can say, if you're a great big retailer and you've got a lot of power, or you're Donald Trump or Richard Branson, your order power, and maybe you don't care about relationship, it's easy to say no, it takes far more skill when somebody comes to you with a demand to say, yes. If you can do a, b, and c, for me, I'm happy to give you everything you need and everything you want, right? So it's now more complicated, because we're talking about rather than saying yes or no splitting the difference, we're talking about bringing in more variables. And it's quite a big mind shift for most people, because I've not really thought about it like that. It's a process of enabling the other party, rather than denying them. And what's fascinating about that is people tend to get really relieved when they learn it. Because nobody likes what I suppose some people like saying no to their customers, and their, you know, their, their children and their wives and husbands. But by and large, people prefer to be nice, right? So I would rather say yes to you, but I don't want to get hurt in the process. So the magic words for thinking through how can I say yes, is to give somebody what they want. But on terms that worked for me, you know, under what circumstances would I be happy to give this to them,
Dan Jovevski 16:10
Ben you've touched on a really important theme, which is the imbalances of power when it comes to negotiating. If I have an example out there, you're negotiating with somebody like an employer, they'll be in a much more powerful position than you are as an employee. What are some of the differences in power imbalances that you've seen in terms of negotiation and enhance that typically affect the outcome? So what are these places where there is an asymmetry of power between, say, somebody who's in a position of strength versus someone who's in a position of weakness,
Ben Byth 16:43
There's quite often a power imbalance, I think, Dan, and, you know, particularly when somebody leaves University and goes into their new job, they may have very little power at all, or they might have power, because you know, they're the king of their industry, now, the king or the queen of their industry, and they know it really well. But then that power will also tend to ebb and flow. You know, there were a lot of people with a lot of power at the start of this year. And then COVID happened and all of a sudden, they're looking for other jobs. So the big thing with power is if you have it, not to abuse it, because if you abuse it, now somebody is going to try and stab you in the eye when they get a chance later on. The other thing is you don't need a lot of power to do good deals. All you need is enough. And there's a there's a famous old fable, one of our colleagues in the UK, went out to see a customer. And it was in the countryside, he had a boozy lunch out in the countryside caught the train out and the train back to the city. And as he's on the train back to the city, one of those intercity trains where there's a toilet, he said, a busy lunch, he needs to use the loo. He goes into use the loo, but he can't get back out. So he presses the stop button. Right, because the guard will find him. And when the guard finally came along, it was a sliding door rather than a push pulling door and the doors
Dan Jovevski 18:07
Oh, my goodness. God
Ben Byth 18:13
Says you're in a lot of trouble. I call it goes well, if you'll agree not to find the for the second time, I've stopped the train. I'll agree not to report you for not finding me the first way. Right. So you don't have a lot of the power is really more about what is it that I have that they want? And what is it that I can do that they would like me not to. And it can be really simple things. You know, maybe your boss turns around and says, can you work late tonight and help me get this, you know this picture to the customer or helped me meet this deadline. You know, that's a source of power. So we tend to think about negotiating on the grand scale where it's big transactions, but often it's on the small end of town where you're going to be making all of your incremental value, you know, boss, as long as you don't mind supporting me having a comment in another area, or learning about this or giving me a nice LinkedIn testimonial. Or even just, you know, signing off this next bit of leave, I was really happy to work late. And the problem is when you miss the first negotiating opportunity, that then becomes the expectation you're working late every time we're under pressure for now. So don't have a lot of power but need to have recognise the sources of power with God and use them effectively.
Dan Jovevski 19:32
Fascinating Ben. And I think just for the back of that we often hear about negotiations as being a win win, where both parties get what they want and everybody sells off into the sunset. But there's something to be said here about, you know what you just discussed we're making sure that both parties feel good about the interaction as opposed to say one party feeling really bad, or one party feeling like they've been there done by because that can often breed resentment can it not?
Ben Byth 20:00
Absolutely, you know, and I'm loath to talk about relationships, because typically when we say the relationships really important, what we mean is, you know, my relationships important, but I don't care about your side of it, you know, it tends to be quiet. So when you know, I'm happy as long as I win, is what people generally mean. But the problem is, if the other party is losing, they don't want to negotiate with you that resentment builds, they probably don't give you their a team, they probably find a way to get back at you later on. And you know, I've seen it in business where people have remembered something somebody said, from 30 years ago, and they've just been sitting there waiting for their opportunity to go crazy. I'd much rather be the guy that people want to negotiate with, because I'm giving them what they want. And if they're getting what they want, but I'm still getting what I need, that is truly going to be something that they're prepared to go follow through with and look much more like Win win. And, you know, then when we start talking about relationship, it's not to be soft and cuddly to say, you know, relationships really important to me, it's actually what the relationship affords, which is going to typically be money or career progression or so on, I want to protect that part of it. I'd love to draw something but that wouldn't work.
Blaize Pengilly 21:14
It would you could you, you could use your language to draw a story in our in our minds.
Ben Byth 21:19
So let me talk through the difference between collaborative or adversarial negotiations. And the adversarial negotiation is to say, there's probably a certain amount of value on the table, and it's a fixed amount of value, Dan is far more powerful than I am, he's gonna demand more so we could split the pie 50/50. But Dan wants 60 and I get 40. And that's a serial stance and Dan and I could arm wrestle over who gets the extra little bit, that would be an adversarial way progression,
Dan Jovevski 21:50
we would get some exercise there, then that's the positive side,
Blaize Pengilly 21:54
I would love to see tha You could end up with a big arm..
Ben Byth 22:00
That works really nicely if you have a lot of power. And you don't care about relationships with your suppliers or your people, your boss. But typically, we all live in a world where the relationships are important because it affords us something. So if Dan wants more of that pie, I don't really mind, I'm going to give it to him. But I'm going to ask him for something else in return something is low cost, low difficulty for me. So Dan's pushed me from 50% of the pie down to 40, I'm going to ask him for some other things that give me an extra 15% of value. So I'm now back at 55. And in fact, in order to make that happen, I'm prepared to give Dan some sweeties too. So he might have pushed himself up to 60, I'll give him another 15% in low cost, low difficulty things to me, he's at 75. And I'm at 55. But I'll take that deal any day of the week, and then is happy to negotiate with me because he's done well, but I'm better off than where I started. So that's a collaborative way of negotiating, compared to an adversarial way. And the key characteristics there is we're shifting away from an adversarial negotiation where it's one variable to being collaborative, where we're going to bring more variables to the table, at least 2.
Dan Jovevski 23:11
a lot of pies and a lot of sweets there, Ben. So I think we're gonna have to be doing some exercise either way. But that's, that's a that's a really important point is that the what you talked about before, which is not being binary, or getting to a yes, I will accept this outcome or away accept this outcome, but actually splitting it out and thinking about some other ways that you might be able to get benefit from the negotiation. And that's something that's really important, where I think a lot of people just don't even go to that level of thinking it's quite amazing.
Ben Byth 23:41
And often, that's because we don't have other variables to trade in, I can imagine that quite a few of your listeners might have gone through a pay reduction recently, or might not get a pay reduction, or sorry, a pay increase in the new year, right. And we could arm wrestle over that. But I'd like them thinking about well, okay. What other things could I be asking for that would make me happy to live with not having my pay increase in the new year. And it might be around career opportunities, it might be around development outcomes, it might be simply access to different people in the organization that they want or even more resource available to do their jobs. And for me, the things that I would ask for is to have the ability to sit on my boat on a Friday afternoon if my work has done the ability to be picky and choosey about the customers overall, and the ability to have flexible working hours so that I could spend some more time with the kids, I'd happily take a little bit less money for them. And particularly if I'm in this scenario, where I have to accept the less money so if I'm going to lose anyway, I may as well make that a better scenario by asking for some other stuff in return. But are they looking for things or low cost low difficulty to the other party because otherwise it's just gonna deadlock it
Blaize Pengilly 24:55
Ben this is really interesting. You're opening up my mind to the The possibilities of negotiation because it seems more like the way that you're positioning, the way you negotiate is that it seems more like a fair trade, you give something get something it's not there's There seems to be a balance remaining at the end of a trade. And, and, and thinking of things differently, like, like you say, having the ability to sit in your boat on a Friday afternoon. That's something that I wouldn't even consider to ask when in conversations negotiating like that. But could you walk us through an example from start to finish of a classic negotiation? So whether it be someone negotiating a better price on a service of them getting a pool installed in their house? Or maybe it is a pay raise? Or maybe it's someone trying to negotiate a rent reduction from their landlord or a decreased interest rate from their bank? Could you walk us through an example start to finish of how you would attack one of those situations, please?
Ben Byth 25:56
Yeah, do you have a preference on which one,
Blaize Pengilly 25:59
Whatever takes your fancy?
Ben Byth 26:02
Well, they're all interesting ones, actually, I think maybe the one that we talk about is if you want to get a better interest rate, because that one's come up just recently where the banks are getting accused of not passing on interest rates. And Ludlow actually suggested in the paper that if you're not happy with your bank, not passing on the full interest rate, rather than just complaining about it and whinging about it on your social media, it's going to be easier for you to get what you want by asking for it. And that is a really important thing. You know, rather than just complain, tell people what you want. And he also alluded to what the source of power potentially could be, and what is your bank or your institution want from you, they want your business, they're afraid of you leaving the threat is to go and leave. So that a thing here is to ask for it, and make it in the other party's interest. And that particular one is a sanction. If you don't give me what I want, I'm going to go and there's a real problem with sanctions because they tend to escalate, you know, go to your go to your your partner, Blaize and threaten something, they're likely just to threaten you back. And we don't like threatening people who are more powerful than us than, like, you know, so for example, our boss, there's a real sanction to the table. And it's to blame somebody else. So rather than bringing the assumption to the table, myself, I might actually blame my wife, I'm going to say my wife is shopping around for a new home loan right now, because she's noticed that you haven't passed on the full ride, but I got to agree that I could call you first. So rather than being the problem, I'm now the solution for the person sitting across the table, they're far more likely to be collaborative with me. So I summarise, the key thing is either ask for what you want, and you're gonna put it in the other party's interest, there's got to be something in it for them. But it really is as simple as that negotiating is not particularly complex. It's no more complex than plumbing or electricity. It's just, it's just a simple process to follow, ask for what she wants seek a response. And a similar thing came up where one of mine had been chasing one of our suppliers for a discount, and they kept ignoring her. So she turned around, and she said, okay, you're ignoring me? Sounds like you're not going to give me a discount, just supposing I can make it in your interest, would you give me a discount, and they went, now I'm listening. So she goes, Well, just supposing I could increase your share of wallet. And I can commit to a longer term, would you not give me the discount I'm asking for. And, of course, you know, the person on the other side of the table says, No problems he got. So if you want something, the big trick is just simply to ask for it. Now the best possible chance of getting it as asking, but it's got to be in their interest. Because if it's not in their interest, they're just going to ignore it. And if you think about that last example, fielding demand is equally as important, this poor guy that gave this discount. He didn't ask the question why she was after a discount. And I know this girl, and she was doing it just for sport. So she was doing it to see if she could get a discount and for no other reason, right? So it's one something I want to qualify you know, why are you asking me for this? What happens if I don't do it? Just supposing I could meet what you're after in a different way. Would you be open to it? You know, rather not negotiate because negotiating is expensive. Maybe I can problem solve it away. As it turned out, a boss was so uninterested in money, he didn't even sign the paperwork to accept it. Wow. gone through the process of agreeing to a discount. Cut the company is not even interested. is quite fascinating.
Dan Jovevski 29:46
Ben, you mentioned a term the deadlock. What happens when we hit a deadlock or a roadblock? We make a mistake during a negotiation process. So I think oftentimes when we negotiate Or we talked about somebody, we're trying to get something complete with another party, we always replayed it back in our minds. But only if I did it differently this time, or did it differently in a different way that we would have got a better outcome? What are some of the tips and hints that you got around deadlocks and roadblocks and mistakes during negotiations?
Ben Byth 30:19
Yeah, so in terms of deadlock, there's a few things. The first one is, if you don't want to put it into deadlock, don't be unreasonable. You know, and sometimes it's in your interest not to advance in negotiation. So you might just not pick up the phone and come back to the negotiating table. Or, if you're particularly persistent, you might throw in a deadlock by putting an unreasonable position on the table. But if you do want an outcome, and you're in deadlock, the way you would notice is you're probably going around and around in circles. And people might be speaking louder at you. Right? So if if people are saying the same thing over and over again, and now you're in deadlock, it would be time to actually leave the table, time to walk away, and you're going to be far more flexible in a break, rather than sitting across the table from somebody. And the question I asked myself, I'm if I'm in deadlock is under what circumstances Could I agree to what they want. And they might not like the price I put on the demand. But it's still going to help. Because I'm now at least trying to be collaborative, and I'm problem solving. And I'm giving them what they need, in a way that will hopefully work for me, right? So under what circumstances Could I agree to their demand. And if they asked me for something small as big a small price on their demand, if asked me for something big, it's a big price on their demand for asking for something stupid, I stick a stupid price on their demand. Price and a stupid demand will probably deadlock it. And one of the ways to get past it is simply just to make a proposal. So Blaize tells me I'm being an idiot with my stupid demand and price on demand. And I go Blaize You're right, my demand is stupid, similarly to yours. However, I haven't been that might work better for both of us. So by making a reasonable proposal now, I might say Blaize, you do this? Dan, you do that? And all that is, you're all going to say no to me. But I'm then going to be able to follow it up by saying, Can you help me understand why that won't work for you? And now we're being constructed again. And hopefully that will help get us out of the deadlock. So proposals will be the arguments. But sometimes it's in your interest to argue right? Like, you know, if my boss rings me about having a pay reduction, sorry, I'm in a meeting. When I talk to you tonight, and I'm going out to dinner. How does tomorrow sound now today? All right? Well, if somebody comes to me with a demand, and I'm simply not interested in it, I might try and postpone it either by not entertaining the conversation or just continuing to ask them questions. So sometimes deadlock is actually really useful for us if we don't actually want an outcome would probably rather than deadlock down Are there times when you've actually preferred to be in deadlock.
Dan Jovevski 32:55
Yeah, I think there is I think there's plenty of times I'm just thinking back to, you know, my son who's supposedly organising a way to get into the fridge and get some chocolate out and may having to take away step ladders, and little little contraptions around the home. And he seems to be unrelenting. And he's quite happy to be in a deadlock position as much as I am.
If he wants Chocolate and you keep putting crayons in front of him, this is a deadlock.
Dan Jovevski 33:27
That is a very, very good point. I think it's so good. I think it was so illuminating, what you just said is, we often postpone difficult decisions, and we try to keep him down the road. And sometimes it's, you know, a fear of the conversation or having that, having that very difficult moment where we have to actually come to an agreement at some point for Madison, both parties.
Ben Byth 33:47
So then I think, sometimes it's in our interest to be in deadlock as well. So I don't know blaze it down, he goes would open your email inboxes there's probably an email from someone every now and then that you open up, have a quick rate of shutter and hope that whoever sent it to you dies, right? So that the problem goes away. We'll postpone those things because they're going to get worse. But if somebody comes to you, and they sign that they want a discount, or they come to you and they want you to do something, you don't really want to do it. Like you know your son saying, Hey, can I have the chocolate I'm just gonna keep sticking crayons in front of my daughter. And I hope that this problem goes away because she forgets about it, but that deadlocks actually in my interest there. So it's really boils down to control you know, don't want an outcome or not, if I don't want an outcome, how can I stall it? Or if I do want an outcome, how can I pique their interest and negotiate with me, which will be sources of power and concessions, and trading those things off to get what I want.
Blaize Pengilly 34:43
So in in the example of putting the crayons in front of the kid who wants the chocolate, you're doing a deadlock because it's beneficial for you and you don't want an outcome but if if I was the child who wants to chocolate, which I pretty much am I would love the chocolate. I could come back with A different proposal or even a silly proposal, or even just a different proposal, like I put the dishes away every night for a week, will I allow that chocolate and that that proposal is in your best interest. So that's where it really comes down to it.
Dan Jovevski 35:14
100% I've got a funny little anecdote for you so often find myself in deadlock with my little girl, Annika. And the deadlock is usually around going to daycare in the morning. So Annika doesn't like, he hates coming home. So go figure anyway. So they go on a course or go to the client about a transaction or whatever, and Tom's passing, Anika is sitting there looking at me, you know, just defiant. I'm not going to school. I won't put my uniform on. And I say Annika, you love school schools where all your friends? How much fun would you have? If you're at school? You know, this is persuasion. And I'm going to start with that because it's free. It doesn't cost me anything if she just buys into what I'm saying. And of course, she looks at me and says, I'm not buying it, daddy. And then I go it's really tell me, what's the problem? Why don't you want to go to school and she just looks at me and goes, go away. Okay, problem solving in the persuasion is not working. And then I'll try and pick her up. And you know, if you ever tried to push a three or four year old into a motor car, they were strong, they put spider legs and arms out and you can't.
So I can't force it. I also can't compromise. Or do I go to the freezer at breakfast time and I pull out an ice cream? I say Annika? I have an ice cream? Do you like ice cream? What do you reckon? She says? Am I better attention now?
Blaize Pengilly 36:45
Ben Byth 36:48
She tries to take it off me? Am I going to give it to her? Under no circumstances? Unless she gets him the girl puts a uniform on and we go to school. And I make that proposal? And would you believe she says no. So it's too much for her to wrap her head around. Instead, I say Annika, if you agree to put your uniform on, you can have a bite. And she goes, Okay, and she tries to take the ice cream off. Me. And of course, my fingers are like steel grips at this point on the stick. And I don't know, who hasn't bought but I'm in control of my bargaining capital my power, I don't hand it over. And then I say if you get in the car, you can have another bite. And she says deal she gets in the car seat belt goes on, she gets the bar, Daddy can impose his will because they're easy to drag out of a car, but it's hard to push him. So I've only given away two parts of my ice cream right to get her to school. I've protected my bargaining capital by trading it in small bits. But the great big glaring problem with this is this is not so much that I got what I want. It's the precedent associated with it. So there's a cost of negotiating. And it's not just the concession, it's the precedent associated with having made those concessions. Maybe tomorrow, or expectation will be in our string. Because it works yesterday be difficult. Someone will negotiate with you. So this condition is very predictable, reliable, efficient way of getting what I want, but it's pretty expensive as well. So I'd much rather have all the other things first.
Blaize Pengilly 38:18
And for someone that's nervous about negotiating, or they have a big question to ask, what are some tactics you can use to approach and to gain the confidence to negotiate? And then Are there any skills when when you are negotiating like body language or tone of voice? Do you have any tips around that as well for when you're in the negotiation? Anything you can do to make it run more smoothly?
Dan Jovevski 38:43
Yes, I quite often get asked about the psychology and I've got a psychology degree. But I find it's not the psychology in the body language that makes the biggest difference that people are asking. But I've got the confidence and the courage to ask. And this was a mate of mine two years ago, was unhappy with his salary. And I said, What are you doing about it? And he goes, Well, I'm trying to get noticed. Is that working for him? He says, No, I go, Chris, why don't you are what you want. And he goes, basically he said, because he's concerned that his boss might behave poorly. And this is the challenge. And we're afraid of asking because someone might say no, we're also equally afraid that they might say yes, which is rather odd, right? So there's a fear of asking because they say no, we're gonna get rejected, but the fear of them saying yes, is we haven't asked for enough. So my advice to Chris was, well, if I can show you a way to ask nicely, does it make it easier for you? And of course the answer to that is yes. So Chris prepared a proposal that went along the lines of boss, what would I need to do for you to get more money? And his boss, of course, is not giving you any more money. And Chris needed to be prepared with a follow up question and some sources Power, some concessions he could make. So his boss says no. And Chris goes, ah, but just supposing I could get this other project done early, would you not give me a bonus? And of course, the boss goes, yes. So Chris then put in place a series of other things, we'll double the salary over two years. And it was simply because he asked, so he was prepared. And he thought about how he was going to ask, you didn't ask for now he asked for it next year, and what do I need to do? And he came prepared with some trading variables, you know, the nicest thing would be just to get given the money, that you're probably gonna have to ask for it the nicest thing, you know, if you're asking us not have to make any concessions together, but in reality, that's just what we're doing. It's a good deal for us. But Chris agreed to do a whole bunch of stuff in order to get more money, and it was little milestones. And within two years, he's he's a complete negotiating monster, you know, double the salary, and not afraid to ask at all, and we got quite emboldened at that point. And it's, it is, it's odd, because people are afraid to ask and then you start, they start getting things, then they're afraid to stop asking. Right. And if you give somebody something, what it signals to them is that there's a lot of value left in the deal. So then all of a sudden, we start getting nervous, we have an astronaut. So we're gonna go back and ask for more and more, and you tend to see a lot of great in negotiations, as a result, they know people will give them something tend to get greedy, rather than rather than gratitude. So advice around that is if you're making concessions to trade them, because the other party will probably stop asking you if they're going to pay a price to get something.
Blaize Pengilly 41:43
And I have a question around, maybe not being around being greedy. But this is a personal situation that happened in my personal life recently, I have a side hustle where I do glitter and face painting at events for people. And I often do it for free. However, I was doing it as at a proper event I had been hired. And I felt I asked for the rate that I thought was appropriate, which is you know, base rate as, as all the other face painters in the area. And then afterwards, I felt really guilty because I had given it i'd often done this, the same task for free multiple times at multiple events before but this event offered to pay me. And then even though I had asked, and I got what I wanted, I was still left with the feeling of guilt after How can you over how can you overcome that? Or do you know the psychology behind? why that would be? Is it because before I wasn't making any concessions with the trade I was just giving? It's because the imbalance was existing? Or do you ever see people feel guilty after they negotiate a trade?
Dan Jovevski 42:50
Can you tell me why you were feeling guilty?
Blaize Pengilly 42:54
I guess I can't put my finger on it. I don't know I guess feel guilty for for charging. Even though it was my time. My money like my money went into it. It was my skills, my supplies.
Dan Jovevski 43:12
For someone else before but then you're charging this time round?
Blaize Pengilly 43:16
Dan Jovevski 43:17
Yeah, I think that might be out of my depth. I don't have any specific advice to other thing on that other than, you know, if you're asking for things that are realistic, you know, you want to ask for stuff that's both optimistic and still realistic. And if they agree, was probably okay by them. Generally, happen the other way round round Blaize where people you know, you make a proposal and they say, Okay, done, and then you tend to get a bit of resentment, or regret. Maybe I should have asked for more.
Blaize Pengilly 43:50
So maybe I agree to it so easily, then you're like, surely, that's all? If they agreed so quickly, then surely I've not asked for enough.
Dan Jovevski 43:58
Correct? Yeah. So maybe that's just a reflection on you being a nice person, I don't know. But if you did find yourself in that scenario, where you felt you haven't asked for enough rather than saying, actually, I made a mistake, my daily right, there's another 20 bucks per hour. You know, it's been an opportunity to go out great. I think we're really close. You know, as long as you don't mind writing me a nice review on the Facebook page, or let me use the pictures for my Facebook page. Let's go ahead. You know, see my trading some extra stuff at that point. Have you ever had it said no to your price? night? Well, if so, if nobody ever says no to you, commercially? What that suggesting to me is you're probably not charging enough.
Blaize Pengilly 44:40
All right, so if I could turn back the clock a couple of weeks, I'd be making even more money on that side hustle.
Dan Jovevski 44:48
For people never say no to it means that it's a good deal. And I actually want somebody to say no to me, because it means I've kind of found somewhere around where that line in the sand is. So if you Ask and they say no, they probably actually just not going to tell you no, you have to go and seek a response, you know, am I going to get the gig? They're gonna say no, the question is going to be why you're too expensive. I'd then be looking to go, okay. Well, as long as you don't mind letting me have all the photos, I'm happy to do it for, you know, five bucks an hour or less. Or as long as you don't mind paying up front 100% non non refundable deposit, I'm happy to do it for less. Right? The war questions fascinating because often, you don't even need to negotiate it often. The problem is not what we think it is, like, we might get told we're too expensive. But it's something else entirely. You know, we've got a client that won't pay 48 grand for a course of 12 people that will pay four grand per person. So they reject our proposal. We say why won't you pay 48 grand they go, it's too expensive and you start exploring it. They're, they're happy to accept four grand per person because it doesn't offend their procurement process. It's not a valid, it's not a problem of value. It's just a problem of how its presented. You know, so if someone says, No, I want to be really curious about the why. And maybe there's a problem I can go and fix. It could be all sorts of other things other than just the value. Another one came out, I was working with someone in HR recently, she had an hourly rate that she charged for strategy, and she got asked to do some recruitment. And they said, aren't you too expensive? And she goes back and ask why. And I said, we're actually not worried about your hourly rate. We're worried that for this recruitment, you might take more hours than we expect, which sets her up to be able to make a great proposal, which is okay, well, you weren't made aware of the risk. Just supposing I'm happy to take on more risk, would you accept a higher rate again, to compensate me for that risk? And they're actually happy to pay more? Right? As long as she's paying the fee. So the was so incredibly important. Here's what I want, when I have it. Okay, let me understand why maybe I can unpack it. Make it work. Amazing, Ben. And as we get towards the end of the show, what is one tip or takeaway that people can get from today's podcast? that you'd like to leave our audience with? So can I pick two? go for it. There's two things. One is ask for what you want, have the courage to ask for. And the other thing is, under what circumstances and the under what circumstances is something that you can point at your counterpart? You know, dad, under what circumstances can I go to school ease, and you can explore out the, you know, the answers that you get, or you can go, you know, under what circumstances would I be prepared to pay for this or take a reduction on that? And really, it's a coaching device, you know, it's helping you work through helping them work through what could those different trading variables be? And it's through, introducing those other variables were able to elevate out of compromise by one party, or both parties get her into something where we can both actually live with it, which is that, you know, multiple variables, giving people what they want on terms of view, but as the under what circumstances is the start of that, because it gets you thinking. That's great. And then I'm certain This question has been posed to you before. But if it hasn't been something that's been incredibly curious, for me to ours, which is Who are your negotiating heroes? It was Samuel Jackson and Kevin Spacey. In the movie, The negotiator back in the late 90s. That was a big hit. But who are some of your negotiation heroes? And where where can people get some inspiration from people who are really, really awesome at negotiating? So I've had a lot of heroes. But I suspect a lot of of your listeners will have the same hero as me. And it's my little girl because she's not afraid to ask for what she wants. She just keeps going at it. She's relentless with it. She's not afraid to hear no. And she's not afraid to bring her power to the table. So I love that courage that goes behind that. But there's a lot of people that I take a lot from and you know, I've got a lot of colleagues that I've, I've learned different things from that have just started because when you look at everybody out in the marketplace, everybody's got different strengths and weaknesses. So I love some of my colleagues are really direct and brave with sharing information. Others are great at trading and finding creative ways to pull deals together. There's another one in particular and that's Chris Voss from the US with his FBI hostage negotiations. There's a lot of similarities between what Chris Voss does and what I do and I particularly love some of the finesse that he brings to the table and the way he says things is amazing as well. I try as much as I can be to be a sponge around around all those negotiating heroes and soak it all up,
Blaize Pengilly 50:07
Ben I didn't even consider, of course, they'd be negotiators in the FBI is that something that would ever be of interest to you negotiating hostage situations with the Australian police was?
Dan Jovevski 50:18
I've never been asked Blaize, if, they'd love to ask me. I'd love to talk about it. I think there's a lot of similarities. I could be wrong. But listening to Chris Voss, it sounds like there's a lot of similarities. Because a lot of my customers find themselves in a position where they feel like they're hostage, you know, the big retailer they work with has all the power in the world. You know, they've got one or two big customers and they feel like they just have to roll over and get in. So I'd be thrilled to get involved in stuff like that, because I'm sure I'd learn a lot. But I think it'd be really fascinating as well.
Blaize Pengilly 50:49
Well, fingers crossed you asked in the future, because that would be super fascinating. Now, Ben, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you coming and sharing your wealth of knowledge with us on we talk sense. If our listeners would like to find out more about you or learn more about negotiating, where can they find out more information.
Dan Jovevski 51:09
So we have a website, which is a great place to go to if you want to know a little bit more, so it's scotwork.com.au. But But I'm also on LinkedIn, which is another great place if you want to look me up. It's Ben Byth on LinkedIn. .
Blaize Pengilly 51:24
Beautiful. Thanks again for joining us, Ben. We really appreciate it.
Dan Jovevski 51:27
No worries. Thank you. Thanks, Ben.
Blaize Pengilly 51:35
Just jumping in here with a quick content warning. With our next interview guests, we discuss the topics of suicide, depression, drug use, and addiction. If you're not comfortable listening to this, please do skip ahead and join us about 30 minutes down the track as we wrap up our chat on goal setting and resolutions with Matt. Thank you. Hey, Dan, I was thinking he has just been, you know, it's a big night big out of celebration and whatnot. When I say Happy New Year, though, what's the first thing you think of?
Dan Jovevski 52:12
The first thing I think of is that the holiday period is a marathon. And now I'm in regret athon. I'm gonna do the top button on my pants. I overindulge and overeating. And it's about time I think to start thinking about the next year head. How about you?
Blaize Pengilly 52:33
Dan, I love your anecdote about the the festive season. Yes, it totally is a marathon. And that is there is a reason why I don't wear button pants at Christmas time or the festive season. I'm I've all elastic waistband at this time of year. But yeah, I would agree with you. The first thing I think of when I say Happy New Year is obviously big party nights, celebrating the end of something celebrating the start of new, something new, the new chapter. And goal setting. And goal setting is what we're going to talk about today, and I'm so excited about it. We're leaving 2020 behind. We've started a couple of days into 2021. And I think everyone's excited to you know, have a good year and start the year out strong. So to start out the and have a good year, you need a vision. And to achieve your vision you need to set goals. So Joining us today is a remarkable human being who's going to do just that. Help us set out 2021 goals. Our guest has a super inspiring story that I'll let him tell you all about is not only an inspiring actor, but he's also an inspirational speaker who shares his incredible motivating story at schools throughout New South Wales. His mission is to instruct inspire, influence and impact people's frame of mind for them to change their lives. He joins us today via video link to do exactly that. Welcome, Matt Caruana. Hey, going, Matt.
Matt Caruana 54:00
Hey, guys I'm good yourself.
Blaize Pengilly 54:03
Very well. Thank you, Matt, thank you so much for joining us.
Matt Caruana 54:07
Awesome to be here. Awesome to be here. Very grateful.
Dan Jovevski 54:11
That so good for you to join us on way talk sense. And before we get into things. I think the audience would love to know your story.
Matt Caruana 54:20
Absolutely. Yeah. So my story is very much mental health related, started from quite a young age when I was so I was brought up, you know, hearing you know, everything happens for a reason. Everyone has a purpose. These things always here. And I always wondered to myself, well, what was my purpose? What What was my reason? That's the question I was 12 and that bothered me because I don't know how to answer it. So this was a founder question. Well, if I was going dead, anything he really changed. I know it's alive. The third question well was a valuable part of society. And that's a high priority. You know, I was 12 years old had no job. My parents didn't tenure on society, which meant, well, if I was gone and dead, nothing around here would really change. Let's be more space more room for someone else who had more purpose and more meaning in their life, which then meant for me that my life meant nothing. And now that really bothered me, I really, really disliked that label myself as worthless, but I can count with any other answer. I shall heavily into depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts, all these old and well, that left me a lot of drugs Not long after, and, ultimately, to some doctor in my story, on January 9 2016. I mean, I failed to make goals this year. And I think myself, I've been thinking about it for years, I went and attempted suicide myself off a building. And as a result, I was left the paraplegic, the spinal cord injury and a brain injury. Now, I'm very fortunate that after my injury, I had many turning points, right, like, and they all push me, they all push me, but ultimately towards final purpose, also fulfilling for me, and what I love. Now, I didn't want to do it. The first time I was offered opportunity to speak in front of an audience, I share my story I was, I was nervous. I was faking. And afterwards, the young people listen to me, they can't see me. Listen, that got a lot from it. Thank you, you inspired me. And that caught me off my tracks. Because I remember after hearing that, just a rush of emotion came up. All that nervousness, I thought was worth it. And I'm just being tears. And I was in tears. I got a call from my manager, that program. And she's like, Matt, we want you to keep at it and wants you to come back next week. But not just to the program hospital, we have a ton of opportunity at the school a parent teacher. Come, it'd be great. I'm like, okay, like, straightaway, why? Because it was fulfilling for me. I kept that from 30 kids in a classroom to have 300 people in a hole. I was leaving even more nervous. But again, same effect happens. And so I kept at it, I kept that program. And eventually I was like, wait, I want to go into schools myself. Okay, so I went to school, myself, can mentors that helped me along the way. And then I went into, okay, I'm going to corporate conferences, universities, I'm just going to share my story, I start running workshops, I was adding value as well. And what it was all about was for matching for me what I loved and what I did every day. So secret for me to find the purpose and what and what was the fulfilling life for me? Now, that's that's fine. That's nice. I believe, talked about enough. It and, and I suppose I was very fortunate age, I was very young, right. And speaking, I was 17 years old, I could just go all in and have to worry about mortgage, kids debt, home loan, all that stuff. And although for me, this is felt fine, what I really loved and what was fulfilling for me, that then led me to be the person that I am now. And now what people want one. So speaking, and acting as well. And I'm very blessed to be in a position I am. And I wouldn't change anything my past.
Blaize Pengilly 58:35
Well, Matt, that that story, your story is that gave me goosebumps that's in an incredible story. And I'm so glad that you've overcome your depression and you're doing so amazingly well now, and you found something that you're really passionate about and where you can really make a difference in other people's lives. So it was finding, speaking and sharing your story to others to inspire them as was that the turning point for you?
Matt Caruana 59:03
That was the biggest turning point from a mental point. That was what really stood out to me because for so long, I labeled myself as worthless. Like I said over those three questions right, then mark and speaking and people were inspired because it's in workshops, people are getting value out of it. Now well without adding any value to society. Yes, I want people main testimonials, and I look at them, I just light up. Well, because one dead ranking change was ready to 10s of 1000s of high school students alone, say all the elephants right in front of as well. And my son, what's the meaning of my life? Like you said earlier? Our mission is to instruct inspire influence impact people's frame of mind and to change their lives. So am I worthless anymore? No. I am how I say it. lack of better word abundance. There's another word, I honestly live a fulfilling life. And I wouldn't go back and change anything in my life. Yes, what I did wasn't great. But I now use my story and my past as a catalyst for other people to learn how they think about their lives, how they can set themselves, the correct goals for them, how they can live their best version.
Dan Jovevski 1:00:24
Matt I am truly blown away by your story. And in the way that you told it in such a compelling way. And that narrative that you displayed, I think, serves people that are listening to this podcast right now about where they are at the moment of their life and things that they can be grateful for. But more importantly, I think what you've done with your situation, your journey, is use that to create a better life for other people. And to realize how fortunate they are and their journeys and how they can turn their lives around. We often don't talk about mental health, or it's an emerging D stigmatized conversation that's now sort of being propelled with conversations that you're having, and other people are having around Australia. So first and foremost, Lee, thank you, man, it's amazing to have these top stories spoken by too many people. Now, what really interested me intrigued me about your journey. And your story is, you know, the concept of setting goals and achieving them. What are some of the core concepts or other ways that people can think about goal setting? Where do people start?
Matt Caruana 1:01:33
To start? I think the first place is really reflecting on what you what you love? And like, what what do you look forward to in your day? Now, the thing is, everyone's at a different stage in their life. Right? And like me, I'm 21 people listening to this could be in their 40s, could be mid mid 30s. Who knows. But definitely starting with, where you are what you love, why, because with what you love, it's gonna that's what you're gonna look forward to doing mostly. And that if you don't love what you do, more than more times, not enough to be great. Market good enough to put your all into it and put your heart into it. So starting with what's most fulfilling for you, what's your fortune, what do you love, and therapy frayed, so and like so for example, I literally just got done, like finalising like a business plan for me for 2020 2021. And it's it for me, it was about not being afraid to push it that little bit. Because so often, we set the bar kind of low. And we think, a one year ago, five years ago, a 10 year goal is like some thoughts and ideas. They're so far out of reach. But if you have the if you have the idea in mind, we're only going to achieve as far as we allow ourselves to shoot for the stars you might hear. If you failed, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
Blaize Pengilly 1:03:15
Matt for those that are starting, you know, they're sitting there, it's been a couple of days into the new year, and people are going okay, what do I really want out of 2021? How would you advise us to set our goals for 2021? So that we can figure out what it is we want and how we achieved them? What are your steps for goal setting?
Matt Caruana 1:03:36
With me? Personally, I think in my life as a whole, not just business, I look at my seven areas of life. So physical, financial, family, social, spiritual, vocational and mental. Go over those seven. And the first thing I do is I reflect on where I'm at, what am I currently? How am I currently doing? Okay, but what I like to be. So we have this like bridge now. Now, what's the gap? How do we bridge that gap? What are the steps that it's going to take? So not only do you have a goal and a vision in mind, but now we have steps and actionable actionable steps that we can take to start bridging that gap and achieving our goals. No matter how long term you're looking. That's the thing, my first step.
Blaize Pengilly 1:04:23
So Matt, once once you figured out you values what you love, and you've looked at those seven different areas of your life, what's the next steps for someone wanting to start out 2021 strong.
Matt Caruana 1:04:34
So for me what determine my values weren't love and my seven areas of life. I then start Okay, I thought about shooting for the stars, like I said earlier, so shoot for the stars with my values and what I love where I see that in 10 years. And 10 is the long time and the thing is we most people underestimate themselves in 10 years. I think that the too far out of reach. And because you are where you're at, you don't know where you are, it's hard to see what a 10 year token look like. I mean, if you're 25, and you say, Well, I'm 35 on this, or, here's a 25 cent look like but shoot for the stars with what you're doing. So in May, I'm currently speaking in hospitals, corporate conferences, events, universities, and creative people one on one where I see myself in 10 years, well, I see myself regularly speaking internationally. And anyways, I won't go to everything to my, my vision, but that's just a rough summer, then I backtrack to that. That's the long term ahead. That's mission for the stars. What's the halfway point? What's five years, five years for me? Well, my current business, which is mental made manageable, I now view that as because currently, I'm only speaking for it. I'll have other speakers and facilitators, right? hostile workshops, going to conferences, promoting my message. And then I backtrack a little bit more to one ego, when you go, Okay, well, I see myself at the end of this year in 2021. Well, then, to me, what's gonna push you that a little bit more, I want to be hitting on average, three schools a week for the schools, three schools a week, I'll be having a minimum of 10 coaching sessions per week as well. So basically backtracking from the long vision to 25. year one.
Dan Jovevski 1:06:31
That is absolutely amazing man, how you have methodically gone out and thought about that big, audacious goal that you have set yourself for 10 years, and then work your way backwards in a very, very practical, clear and concise way. For the listeners out there thinking about their own goal story and relating it to your journey, and they're looking at a 10 years, bring it backwards? What are some of the tools and frameworks or some of the practical things they can do to get the goal set? And what do you use? Matt? Do you use an Excel sheet? Do you use a Word document? Do you use any apps? What are some of the tools and frameworks that you use to keep on track of your goals?
Matt Caruana 1:07:08
First and foremost, write them down? It's only common sense. But it's it amazes me how many people actually don't do this. And I mean, for me, personally, it's what works best on my pen to paper, or on a whiteboard, or physically by saying, Yeah, because with me support that my word, I'm impeccable to my word. It's really key to me. And my agenda is my word, I need to now fulfil on this. And so firstly, write it down. So then the goals and then breaking that down. So like with the seven areas of life, how this is where we're at, and where we want to be. And here's the bridge with a one year goal, building that exact same framework. What's that bridge? How are we going to get to the other side? What are the steps we take? What do we need to do each week setting out a weekly plan for ourselves, and weekly goals to things targets, we want to hit things we want to do. So like, for example, in 2020, I had goals like a number of schools, I wanted to call the day conferences, I wanted a platform, all that stuff. And whatever it is, in terms of like the listener, their business today goals, so that when you go, just setting up weekly tasks.
Blaize Pengilly 1:08:24
Matt I'm really curious about your method of of setting it up how how you start with the the 10 year vision. Now, you said that a lot of people underestimate what they can achieve in 10 years. Why is that? And how do you know? Like so when I think, okay, 2031 that's a long way away. I hope I've achieved something. How do you know? How big is too big like, and how little is too little? Like, do you have any tips for figuring out the I guess it's the Goldilocks, you don't want a goal that's way too big and unachievable? You don't want to go that's too too small and way too easy. How do you get the just right sweet spot for your 10 year vision?
Matt Caruana 1:09:08
I think like I said earlier shooting stars, you might hit it. The thing is, you are only you only allow yourself to achieve as much as you allow yourself to change. So if you say, Okay, well, I'm only going to be for example, I'm only going to be speaking interstate so that I will do because I select myself and present myself repetitively and keep it for myself. Subconsciously I'm going to believe that that's what I'm going to attract into my life. But if I shoot for higher that is then that is now what I'm looking for what I'm going to achieve, but allow yourself to shoot higher. You say it's off no limits. Because like I said, you only too much to rise.
Dan Jovevski 1:09:58
Oh fantastic, Matt. And one of the one of the big lessons that I'm sort of taking away here, and I relate it back to another article that I read back years ago, where they said that plans are less important. But the planning process is the critical component because it makes you really think about how you'll set your goals and that, that the process that we'll use is supervduper important. That's that's quite an amazing insight. And how do people sort of get get started? What do you what type of environment you like to be in? Because I think sometimes environmental factors of this goal setting exercise is really important. How do you get yourself with the environment goal set? And what would you recommend for people to get themselves into a frame of thinking where they can set the goals for 21? And beyond?
Matt Caruana 1:10:41
Personally? Perfect! And I love that question. Because I believe, for me personally, the first thing that, like you mentioned, environment, changes everything. One thing that I love to plotter, right is the people we surround ourselves with how they can change how we think, feel and act by being around people that are supporting lisrel. Or maybe like, like, for example, like just bad habits. Like for me, my past drugs, I was around people that, you know, they're encouraging much argues though we're, the sort of school could be doing themselves and encouraging all the bad habits as well. But, you know, I, that definitely was not in alignment with where I wanted to go. And what I do, it steered me away from my goals took me well away from it. So I need to change tools around now. Not only the people, but then also to start changing my space. Right. So by filling my space with, firstly, my whiteboard that I have, where I work every day, I have a whiteboard set up that allows me to see this, if I'm working towards this, what we'll do is my weekly tasks, this is my vision that helps me to work towards my goals, then the last step, and this is the most crucial one was my mindset. When I became self aware, when I reflected where I'm at what I believe about myself, what my beliefs, what was my attitude towards certain things, such as what my goals are. And when I achieved a little self awareness, and then start taking steps towards being more in alignment with my goals, my vision,
Dan Jovevski 1:12:28
That's amazing man. And that's such an important part. And I think, as a hack for listeners is your whiteboard is coming back with an absolute resurgence. The amount of times I've had whiteboard from people is just incredible. There is I think, so that we've talked about, we've talked about setting the goals looking 10 years ahead, we've talked about the importance of planning, we talked about the environment. But now more importantly, what about tracking your goals? You mentioned sort of tracking weekly, how often do you track your personal goals? And what would you recommend to our listeners in terms of how they check in and seeing how they're tracking?
Matt Caruana 1:13:07
I think weekly is a great way to start. Because so my sayings, I quickly got Okay, what did I achieve my week? Did I achieve all the tasks that needed to be done? Did I keep my numbers and all that? And by reflecting on that, and by doing it week after week after week, you can then find, okay, is there a trend is a pattern, okay, Did this happen this week that caused this dip or this spike in my activity, my performance. And by recognising that I believe you have to get a clear picture on like way averages. And then with weekly tasks. I personally like the push ups Pump, pump, pump, pump, pump it and keep pumping it The thing is over committed if you're over committed over deliver, and that's how you're going to really smash your goals and allow yourself to achieve more.
Blaize Pengilly 1:14:02
Matt, I love your enthusiasm. And I love the I love over committing and and pushing yourself to do more. But for a lot of people they don't commit to their goals or their resolutions. In fact, I have some data from Strava also the social network app for athletes have you guys use Strava before it's it's like a it's a fitness app that you know you can track your runs or your rides or your roller skates, whatever it is and you can post it and it's kind of like Facebook for fitness people. And not really me although I have used it once or twice. But Strava released some stats that the majority of people that set fitness goals in New Year's resolutions quit by the 19th day of January. So that's pretty close in that if we go by the if we go by the old saying that it takes three weeks to make a habit these people are in Two days off from making a habit. And that's when I quit. So for someone that's not as committed and motivated as you and for people that are setting these goals that they're not really sticking to, what would be your tips for staying motivated? And and sticking to them?
Matt Caruana 1:15:16
Definitely, I believe it goes back to the people that are surrounding yourself with, what are the influences upon you? Are they motivating you? Are they inspiring you to push more? Are they pushing themselves, and if they're not, and you want to, for your goals, start seeing who you can, who else you can train yourself with. Maybe, for example, in relation to gym goals, maybe another gym, for example, maybe need to go to a gym that is more aligned with your goals. As an example, where you get a one day trial there, and you say, Okay, these guys push themselves, I want to make that that's only that person. So definitely people you're around, and your environments and where you choosing to be.
Dan Jovevski 1:16:03
That's amazing, Matt, it reminds me of a story of I was listening to a podcast recently about habit formation and creation. And a good way to keep people accountable is actually to tell people what you're going to do. And by telling everyone that, you know, it forces you to actually enact on that for purposes of social validation. Like if you're telling people, hey, I'm going to go and start a business. And you've told 10 of your closest friends, every single time that you catch up with again, they're gonna ask you, hey, how's that business that you, you said, you're going to start? How's that going? And that also must go into, into motivating them to start choosing those goals. So I think what you've just mentioned there, Matt, I think would resonate with a lot of people. Because the environment who you surround yourself with the accountability partners that you have a longer journey, are incredibly important to enforce some of those behaviours that required us to stick to those habits. So that's an incredible insight.
Matt Caruana 1:16:56
I cannot agree more. But I believe a big, big, big thing about it is not saying it over text, and say every call Satan face to face. Because once one book that person really, really really did love me it was the Four Agreements earlier on being impeccable to you. But that is like the overarching theme that book and being impeccable to your word is something that I believe a lot in society, because we can hide behind our keyboards now. I have to face you, in person anymore. And if I want you my wife, your boys, but by saying in person, it it takes conviction and guts to do it. And I couldn't agree more. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Blaize Pengilly 1:17:45
Matt. I like how you said before, like going back to what you said before how you like writing down your goals and your visions, and then saying it face to face. Why don't we just take the next step and everyone get their goals tattooed on their body, then you have it written down. But having that reminder, and your friends can always call you up on it. You've got you've got the written down aspects and accountability. All in one, you know,
Matt Caruana 1:18:11
I think will have enough room for your weekly goals. Your one year, five year maybe a 10 year vision.
Blaize Pengilly 1:18:21
Weekly might get a bit back she'd probably skin after running out of space. Matt, thank you so much for joining us. We've got one last question before we have to let you go. If you could share some parting wisdom if there's one thing that you could leave our listeners with, to think about and keep with them for the rest of 2021 what would what would it be?
Matt Caruana 1:18:45
Cliche as it is it's the honest to god truth so apply every day follow your heart, follow your heart not just love this person? Because what do you what do you love? Wow,
Blaize Pengilly 1:19:00
truly inspiring stuff. Matt, thank you so much for joining us here today. We really really appreciate it you have such an incredible story a section amazing human we really think that thank you for coming in sharing your time with us and I don't know about you Dan, but I am super inspired. I think I need to get my pen and paper out or maybe my teddy gun and 2021 man if you found this does want to find out more about you. Where do they go? How do we find out more about you Matt?
Matt Caruana 1:19:31
Absolutely my websites www.mattcaruana.com My Facebook is Matthew Caruana. Instagram is Matt shares.
Dan Jovevski 1:19:48
Fabulous Matthew, it was a pleasure to have you on the program and we bid you a wonderful 2021.
Matt Caruana 1:19:55
Thank you very much. Thank you Blaize I appreciate you both.I wish you guys a Good day and fantastic 2021. And may both of you prosper in all of your efforts and all your goals.
Dan Jovevski 1:20:08
Thanks, Matt. Thank you, Matt.
Blaize Pengilly 1:20:09
Same to you. What uninspiring guy honestly, Dan, what did you learn from from that?
Dan Jovevski 1:20:23
pI was incredibly touched by that story. And he's just sheer tenacity and willingness to never say die. I think his ability to look at his own past reflect on where he is bait himself personally. But then the selflessness of a human to go out there and inspire plenty more young people in Australian all around the world, that is just something I've got to take my hat off to. So I think the thing that I learned about Matt was goal setting was a core thing, the thing that really resonated with me, was just the gratitude that one should have about their own situation in life at the moment. And I think what more practically, I think, for me, is getting yourself into an environment where you can think big, and allow yourself the permission to set goals that are really super audacious. And that was incredibly inspiring, .
Blaize Pengilly 1:21:20
that I was really, really touched by his story, like mental health is obviously a huge issue and something that isn't talked about enough and every time is talked about, we always say it's not talked about enough to hear Matt Shay's story so freely, was really, really touching. And to see his his really had a complete 182 to having no purpose to now being a motivational speaker, like, Oh my gosh, those are two really different ends of the scale, you know, and it, he really inspired me, like you say, with the goal setting, it's not just about resolution. It's not just about goals, but how we tapped into it's really about what you value and what's important for you and the Seven Pillars of life. I think that that really resonated with me. And just just on the discussion of mental health, if you're listening in this discussion has bought up anything for you today and and you feeling a little bit down or you need someone to chat to, please know that you can call Lifeline on 13 1114. If you're in Australia, the call is free. It's confidential and it's a safe space to share and discuss your needs worries or concerns. So that number is 13 1114. Thank you for tuning in to the first episode of we talk sense for 2021. We have an epic lineup of guests and topics for the year ahead. And we're excited for you to join us as we continue to bring you more money news and personal finance inspiration as well as a plethora of amazing guests.
Dan Jovevski 1:22:54
If you liked today's episode, why don't share it with somebody who might benefit from learning about negotiation, or goal setting.
Blaize Pengilly 1:23:00
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Dan Jovevski 1:23:08
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Blaize Pengilly 1:23:15
Don't forget you can also download the free wemoney app to get a full picture of your financial health.
Dan Jovevski 1:23:21
We'll catch you on the next episode of we talk cents.
Blaize Pengilly 1:23:24
See you later. Bye
The author is not a financial advisor and the information provided is general in nature and was prepared for information purposes only. This article should not be considered to constitute financial advice. Accordingly, reliance should not be placed on this article as the basis for making an investment, financial or other decision. This information does not take into account your investment objectives, particular needs or financial situation.