We talk to Superannuation expert Helen Hodgson as well as looking at whether phone insurance is really worth it + a full breakdown of the zero based budgeting method.
The following is a transcript taken from episode 6 of the We Talk Cents podcast. The transcript is created by AI software so it might not be perfect - please forgive any imperfections or grammatical errors.
Dan Jovevski, Helen Hodgson, Blaize Pengilly
Blaize Pengilly 00:09
Personal finance, budgeting, cash flow, and investing don't have to be scary words. The Money Bites podcast is here to help you learn more and take control of your personal finances. The Money Bites podcast is not a financial advisor. This podcast is made for entertainment and educational purposes only. All information shared is of a general nature and does not take into account your personal situation. You should consider whether the information is appropriate for your needs and where appropriate seek professional advice from a financial advisor.
Dan Jovevski 00:43
For more information, please check it out. wemoney.com.au slash disclaimer
Blaize Pengilly 00:49
Today and welcome to episode six of Money Bites a podcast presented by wemoney. I'm Blaize your resident compulsive shopper.
Dan Jovevski 00:56
And I'm Daniel resident finance expert. This week we're talking about
Blaize Pengilly 01:00
phone insurance or common debt traps
Dan Jovevski 01:03
and the Zero Based budget.
Blaize Pengilly 01:05
Should we get into it? Dan?
Dan Jovevski 01:06
Let's do it Blaize.
Blaize Pengilly 01:13
Dan, how long do you think you could last with your current life? your current job? Your current family situation? Without a mobile phone? How long do you think you could feasibly last? Before you lost it
Dan Jovevski 01:29
Blaize I don't think engineering has caught up to measure the time of measurements that is so small, without naifa view to an anxiety attack at my phone or the vials checking my phone. I probably one of those duty people that you know think about you know locking their phone in a drawer or putting it downstairs sleep. Now, completely the opposite. You're probably at three and do scrolling on some social platform. I wish we cannot live without my phone. How about you?
Blaize Pengilly 02:03
Yeah, I'd like to think I can live without my phone. But I cannot. And I'm absolutely hopeless looking after phones. I am not joking. I have been through minimum I've actually lost count how many phones I've been through this year. I think I've replaced my phone about four times. And in that time borrowed two from friends, I'm absolutely hopeless looking at buttons. The reason that we're talking about phones is because today we're discussing phone insurance, whether or not you should get it, whether or not it's worth it. And essentially what it is so phone insurance. What is it, it's a small regular fee that you paid to ensure that if anything happens to your phone, say drop it off a boat or especially screen during a street fight or you happen to lose it, you'll be covered. Now when it comes to the cost breakdown, the majority of retailers sell insurance for about $15 a month. So over a standard two year contract for phone is totals about 360 bucks. And when it comes to actually purchasing phone insurance, you usually buy it in store when you're purchasing a phone and a plan. There's a bit of a catch though, so you're paying the $15 a month. But if you need to claim your insurance, most retailers will still charge you a service fee on top of your monthly premium. So this might be a service fee or a placement fee every time you need to make a claim. And this is additional so you paying the 360 plus whatever the service or replacement fee is now with everything. There are some exclusions when you're getting phone insurance. And generally general wear and tear isn't covered. So if you have a couple of scratches here and there that often isn't covered by your phone insurance provider, typically damaged by fire is not covered. And also you may not be covered if you have another providers similar Say for example, if you had just for an example of this as your provider and toaster as your as your phone handset. If you would have put your Optus sim into your toaster handset you may not be covered while the other providers sim is in a different providers handset. Also another thing to consider when you're getting phone insurance is that not all providers will cover you if the phone is lost or stolen. If you're looking to take out an insurance policy, because you're worried your phone might get stolen. It's really important to read the fine print and find out if you will actually be covered if you lose your phone or if it's stolen or if your insurance only covers things like damage screens or breaking speakers and microphones and whatnot. Dan that's your typical for an insurance that you can get through a Telco. What other alternatives are there to traditional phone insurance?
Dan Jovevski 04:59
Blaize, a few of them. And I think if you look at the stats here in Australia for Apple, let's say 50% of Australians have an iPhone of some description. And if you've purchased an iPhone recently and been offered Apple care, this is probably one of the more popular choices that happened with protective phones. The cost of apple care is the move between $100 and 99. And the period of coverage is about two years. And what comes before is any accident damage over that period of time, you also get additional access to party tech support, which is probably above and beyond say, what we're talking about today, which is just protection coverage for your phone, there is no coverage though, if your phone is lost or stolen, that's going to fall on you. And it's not just the 129. To write on lies, you also have to pay an additional $45 if you have a damaged screen, so it can add up pretty quickly. This also service fee in some cases of about $149 for any other damage that is not specifically covered by Apple care plan.
Blaize Pengilly 06:04
So with an apple care, you're I'm assuming this only is something available to you if you buy a brand new iPhone outright or not. If you're buying a refurbished one or secondhand and this is a sort of finally if you're buying in store online direct from Apple,
Dan Jovevski 06:19
Yes Blaize. The apple care seem to be offering you perks apples that does offer the finished products. And I believe that in some cases that you don't get access to Apple care, but I think that's very specific on the type of products that you buy. And generally speaking, if you're going to buy a new Apple phone apple care will become available to you at the time of purchase.
Blaize Pengilly 06:41
And are there any other alternatives to traditional phone insurance by any other providers?
Dan Jovevski 06:46
Yes Blaize, there is the Telstra STI clinic adoption. And what Telstra staking is is it will give you the option to replace your phone up to two times every single year 1000 Plus you'll find that 90 with a refurbished option. So you should really Double check to see whether or not that site that you're now willing to take up. The option is also more flexible. And they'll do with no questions asked is really good for people that want to have that peace of mind. And don't have to sort of worry about you know, making sure it's climbing guard from the rigmarole of psycho having to fight and all those types of things that can get pretty intense. Particularly if you're moving to Ghana, you find straightaway. The cost is $15 per month, the Rosslyn additional fees like as a $59 fee for a broken screen on eligible has is only for the US and Asterix part of this offer from Telstra. There's also a service fee of about 190 to $270. Each time that you want to swap or replace you find and the cost does very bad boss. So this is all sort of, you know, potentially good option for people that are mainly looking to replace their phone on a more regular cadence. And lastly, Blaze. I think one of the probably the areas that are not super obvious for people is that sometimes you don't need to buy a specific phone insurance plan. Some insurers in Australia will offer you the ability to have a highly contents insurance plan and cover you for your phone, as well as say things like a laptop or anything that that goes with you say outside of your home. And this is actually something that a lot of people often forget about is their own sure about the average provide them the option of phone insurance for very little increase in premium and that personally places where I probably would start first. Rather than going through all of these third party options that may add up pretty pretty quickly when you start looking at all the additional costs, say outside of your own access that you've got your own personal Homecourt his insurance provider.
Blaize Pengilly 08:52
So taking a look at the Telstra, the stay connected option apple care. And even just regular phone insurance that you can buy outright when you're purchasing a plan, it seems like they all have either they all have regular monthly fees. And then if you actually need to use the phone, or sorry, replace the button, you still need to pay extra money on top. So it's definite money every month just to be insured. And then if you happen to need to use the insurance, you still have to pay more. So it's money, it's a lot of money.
Dan Jovevski 09:26
It is Blaize. If you think about it, it is really a lot and also the question, you know, the phone and you know, we're not living in a universe right now where we've got augmented reality, we're walking around glasses, so the phone is probably going to exist for another set of five to seven years potentially even longer. Do you really want to be paying for say a brand new iPhone, top of the range, you know, cost me $2,000 Plus, then you know how long that phone is going to last? Another potentially you're three to $400 on top of that to insure your phone The cost can get up pretty quickly. And then in the event that you do need to replace that phone, there's some additional fees attached to that, to be frank plays on the sort of camp, if you can avoid paying for all of these insurances that don't make a lot of economic sense, probably do it. At the same token, if you're a person that does have a lot of fingers and your crops your heart, it could be a good option, because the last thing we'll be doing is trying to find no additional money to try find a bone as well. The other one I'll touch on places, where we're getting to is a lot of people have the latest and greatest cellphone. Another good hack is if you are going to replace your phone Anyway, she live with a model that may not be the top of the range, can you buy a policy every two or three years? All estimates will be will. And if you look at what Apple's doing right now with, say the iPhone 12, some would argue it's not nothing too different. The author of 11, the iPhone 10. So if you do have an advance where you do break your phone, you don't have insurance, the first port of call is maybe exploring things like Facebook marketplace and country to see if you can find them much cheaper device and something that's already been pre loved before Robin showing up all the additional cash to find the phone.
Blaize Pengilly 11:13
Yeah, that's a very good tip. I personally buy refurbished phones, because you like you mentioned before, but the thing is, that is 100%. May I have a very bad track record with phones. So I use a I always try to buy refurbished phones. And it definitely cuts down on the cost. And even though it's secondhand, you can never really tell there might be a small scratch or a tiny bit of like exterior damage, but nothing that actually impacts the use of the plan, which is good. I've got some stats. Dan,
Dan Jovevski 11:45
Hit me Blaize.
Blaize Pengilly 11:47
actually have a question for you. What do you think they're more of in Australia? People or phones?
Dan Jovevski 11:56
Hmm, I think you probably phones we typically go through. So like, in my lifetime, it's only probably about 10. And if you add that up across the whole population, I'm going to guess is going to be a factor of about 3 to four times more phones than people. Does that sound about right?
Blaize Pengilly 12:17
Yep, yep, you're correct there. There is many, many, many more devices than phones in Australia. And yeah, on average, people tend to have about three or four in per household, just spare lying around. And data from 2017 shows that in Australia, we were damaging an average of 1370 devices per day. And that's not just regular damage that's damaged beyond repair, like that is that is down in the dump like your phone is done and dusted, damaged. And millennials. They are the worst offenders. Millennials are worst offenders with more than 26% misplacing or breaking their phones. But the good thing is, is we're not as bad as America. Because in the US there are approximately 50 million cracked and smashed phone each year, which equates to about two per second.
Dan Jovevski 13:18
Blaize Pengilly 13:19
Yeah, obviously, we don't have the same population as America. But it's nice to know, we're not the only ones that are being willy nilly with our electronics.
Dan Jovevski 13:27
That's super interesting, Blaize.
Blaize Pengilly 13:29
Dan, if for someone that is looking to take out phone insurance, what are some tips that you would give them for when they're deciding on what policy to go is? Or whether or not it's right for them?
Dan Jovevski 13:41
Great question Blaize. I think that those things we'll look at is what is the total cost of insurance going to be a period of time that you typically will have your phone for. So if you're going to have phone insurance, say the left has a beta sort of half of two years, consider what that total cost will be to insure your device, that'd be probably the first place I would start. If you think the ratio of the cost of the insurance versus the coverage isn't really worth it, then you probably should stop your search for insurance at that point in time. But for those who do see some value that and really do want that peace of mind, the great place to start is where I think a lot of insurance companies calm us down, where we have to go digging inside the PDS to uncover what are the specific exclusions that apply to those phone insurance plans. And that's where I probably start first to see if there's any glitches.
Blaize Pengilly 14:33
So the PDS that's product disclosure statement, am I right?
Dan Jovevski 14:37
that's the one, Blaize.
Blaize Pengilly 14:38
All right, so do some heavy reading a light reading before you sign up with the plan.
Dan Jovevski 14:43
That's it and you can also cancel on your insurance policy. Most policies will have a cooling off period of about 14 days and this will give you some time to say like you know what i did by phone insurance, and I probably don't need it so I can count Let me get my money back, which is obviously a really, really good thing that the Australian Government has in place to protect consumers from people selling phone insurance policies. And this is actually a really good point that you touched on Blaize. Because when I suspect, the main ways that phone insurance is sold, is probably sold at the time they were actually buying a phone. And if you think about, as you're going into that fancy Telstra shop or Apple store or opera shop, you're in a really hot and emotional state where you're buying something new, you're going through a purchase, and the ability for you to say yes, or tick a box. And yes, I'll have fries with that. Boat insurance goes up pretty big. So I'll have that, in the back of your mind as you go into getting a new phone is do research about the bond insurance first before getting in with a salespersons handy seller price and saying, Hey, here's an additional $15 on your plan. You'll never notice that. And I think that's often a time where people will get startled, forced into buying a phone insurance plan when perhaps it is actually neither.
Blaize Pengilly 16:13
Yeah, for sure. I can certainly understand when you're laying out such a big cost $15 a month really doesn't sound like much $15 a month is a couple of coffees or it's a burrito so I can easily understand how you could justify, like you say in the heat of the moment, justify going Oh, yeah, well, I wouldn't want to pick up this $1,000. Again, for phones, of course, I guess pay the extra $15 without really looking into whether or not it covers you. Should we take a look at screen replacements, Dan, because I know personally, that's where I do most of my phone damage, and it can end up being a pretty costly replacement. So should we take a look at what the regular cost is and what it would cost if you had regular furniture? Sure Blaize. okay, so for an iPhone, if you were to get it and say let's say iPhone 11, if you were to get it repaired by the manufacturer, it would cost anywhere between three about $320 and $530. If you were to take it to it, so that's if you take it to the Apple store or an apple approved repairer, if you were to take it to a third party, it'll cost you about $350. So if we're looking at that, if you get a phone for two years, and you damage the screen once going to a third party repairer is only $350. Whereas if you went to Apple, you'd be paying more. Or if you had a friend insurance or another telco you'd be paying the premium, which is about $15 a month plus the additional service fee. So in that instance, it's actually probably cheaper to not have your phone insured and only have it repaired at the third party repair. But when it's things like these, you do have to consider that if you go to a third party repairer, your warranty may be void on the phone. So I guess there's lots of factors to consider. And also if you break it more than once, then you'll obviously pay be paying the fee again. So I guess you'd have to do the math and figure out how many times you'd need to break your phone on average, to get your money's worth out of actually having fun insurance. Dan, with the screen costs considered, do you think phone insurance is worth it?
Dan Jovevski 18:33
Blaize, all of us to be skeptical ends. When issue insurance industry in general, they're often finding a way to ensure things or Salesian value for things that you may or may not need. And I think insurance for a lot of cases that fall into that category. I'll use another analogy. Probably around five years ago in Australia, at the same issue in a completely unrelated field. What used to go by a car, the person in the car dealership would get you to go through the process of buying a vehicle walking into the finance insurance office. Let's say you always have insurances that may or may not be enabled. And we get some really obscure ends of insurance that I quite frankly, that makes sense. So, car dealerships, were selling rim insurance. So I know insurance. Have you scratching your rim?
Blaize Pengilly 19:32
Oh my gosh.That sounds absurd.
Dan Jovevski 19:37
It is absurd. And it was actually huge government crackdown on this sector because what they uncovered was that the value by insurance or or claiming this truth very low compare the cream is our pain. I don't know if this is the same for things like bone insurance is the stat out there that people know of other companies share with us but why? I suspect that people have this too hard basket when it comes to climbing stuff. But that to pay or visual fees of an outlet is such a big premium. I think that photo shorts falls in that category plays on the last. If you can avoid paying phone insurance, or capital losses, that's true, probably where you, we should start. And when you think about it these days, you can actually do some great covers via phone that probably cost you about 30 to $40. They can provide you a lot of protection, safety, dropified Heights, if you want to cover your screen as initializing your device, but actually more durable than, say, quite an honor phone insurance plan. So I guess from a first principles perspective, I've got a fair
Blaize Pengilly 20:44
Not a fan. Well, I think you make a very good point about the having your phone properly protected with the right covers and screens and whatnot. Because if you're paying $360 every two years in fees, and then an extra $45 service fee to replace the screen, that's $405, just to replace a screen once, where is if you do invest in one of the really hardcore cases, and a screen projector and whatnot, that could maybe be 4050, up to 100 bucks, depending on how high quality you go. And that would probably cover you for 1234. However many times you drop or break, break your screen. And just a stat for that is that in America, Americans admit to dropping their phone at least four times a week. And I would say I do it about four times an hour. So. So when you add the mess up? Yeah, it really depends on whether or not you want to lay out the initial investment of protection, or have that sort of hindsight investment of insurance for the instance of if something goes wrong. So I guess the question of is it worth it is really depends on your likelihood of making a claim? And how often you seem to damage your phone or Yeah, the buttery ness of your fingers. Any final thoughts on phone insurance, Dan?
Dan Jovevski 22:03
Blaize, if phone insurance is right for you, as possible, look at the multi phase and then the Xs and in the other service fees and premiums that you may be charged if you have a claim. This should be the first and last discussion about buying insurance premiums, add an audition fees and really see if it's worth it. There's also a great deal of research that you can do online and different plans, insurances from different providers and making a decision to save is key. I know that I always say this. But please do read the product disclosure statement for the PDS issued by the insurer and see what the gotchas are. What I typically do is I go to documents when they come to my desktop, I just do a Ctrl F Command F, depending on what device you use, and then type in exclusions and go straight to that page. That's really the only thing I'm interested in is what are they not going to pay me out for? And what is the probability I'm going to enter into those circumstances where I made like that claim. And I think it was one of the most underrated part of it at the start of the show was Have a look at your own insurance plan or your home contents. And if you've got that, you maybe I would actually take a portion of the year who are covered for contents that you take out of home. And that means the conversation of actually finding phone insurance. That's completely out to be done. How about you, Blaize?
Blaize Pengilly 23:24
Final Thoughts? Yeah, phone insurance for me. The jury's out on this one. However, I can see how for some people, it's really beneficial and worthwhile. However, yeah, I think it really it really comes down to doing the research and you looking at yourself and your habits, your behaviors and going how likely Am I to actually get enough value out of these to warrant paying that your premiums up front or premiums over the month and guess adding to a bill they may not even use or get any value from in the end. So for me sums down on phone insurance, unless you do your research and find a good value plan that will really work for you. Hey, Dan,
Dan Jovevski 24:15
Blaize Pengilly 24:17
Are you wearing underwear on the inside of the outside today? I can't tell because we're talking via video link.
Dan Jovevski 24:24
Oh, Blaize thank goodness I'm wearing underwear today. A full stop. But it's it's the right way on today. Funny enough.
Blaize Pengilly 24:31
The right way on Well then, okay. I was hoping you would say that you're wearing underwear on the outside because that was my very poor attempt at linking underwear to superheroes and then to superannuation. Because there has been a lot of chat about and changes to superannuation lately, so we thought we'd call in an expert to help us make sense of it all. So today's guest is an expert in taxation and not only does she know about taxation and superannuation, but her other primary areas of research Include housing and inequality. She's contributed to policy reviews in the areas of both superannuation and the tax and transfer system. She is the Director of Graduate Studies at Curtin law school NWA, and has previously worked at UNSW. She's also been a member of the Legislative Council NWA between 1997 and 2001. She's a member of the Social Policy Committee of the National Foundation for Australian women. She's clearly very accomplished, and she joins us now via the magic of the internet. Welcome, Helen Hodgson. Hi, welcome, Helen.
Helen Hodgson 25:31
Hi, Blaize. How are you today?
Blaize Pengilly 25:33
Very well. Thank you, Helen, thank you so much for joining us. Now, Helen, let's get into it. You clearly know a lot about super. Can you talk us through what the recent changes to Super are and how they came about?
Helen Hodgson 25:47
Well, they've been a series of changes, I'll just sort of discuss the ones over the last couple of years, there was a report by the Productivity Commission into the superannuation system. And one of the really serious significant findings was that a lot of people have got more than one superannuation account. And a lot of people with more than one superannuation account have very low balances. So the focus of the changes over the last two years have been to try to work out how to make sure that people aren't losing too much money in fees, and insurance that they're never going to use, because they have multiple superannuation accounts. So if we go back two years ago, the first thing was to make sure that people who had low balances that is less than $6,000, did not have more than a certain amount taken out in fees and charges so that the fees and charges are kept for those people. They also looked at compulsory insurance and superannuation. So for a lot of people, it's no longer compulsory to have insurance through superannuation. Now, later, we might discuss this further, it's often still a good idea to have it. But the problem was, when people had three different insured superannuation accounts, and insurance was coming out of all of them, they weren't getting the value for money, adequate their pay. So that was those changes that came in about 18 months ago, the most recent changes in the budget this year are to make it much easier for people to have just one superannuation account. So instead of you having to go to the superannuation system and say, how many accounts have I got? Can I merge them into one, you will now have a default account that belongs to you as an individual. And every time you change your employer, your super should be attached to that default account, instead of them setting you up a different account. So there's sort of streamlining the system then and you don't does that mean, we still don't have to do all the paperwork or you still have to do the paperwork, when you're signing up for a new employer? Yeah, there will still be paperwork to be done. But the they're also increasing the use of the my gab app, so that you can do a lot more of this online when you join your employer. And whereas previously, it would sort of say, what super kept you wanted to go into now it will say this is your default super account. And that will go through to the employer that way, obviously, the technology isn't completely in place yet. But the idea is that using the tech, it's going to make it much easier to make sure that you don't end up with multiple accounts, because you'll just have the one that goes with you all of your life.
Dan Jovevski 28:36
Helen, that's a really great outcome. And I think everybody probably listening to the show today has probably logged into my god at least a couple of times over the years and just seen those six or seven different superannuation account providers. What do you think a lot of people had multiple accounts, is it the time when they end up signing the paperwork on the employer, the employer puts those really complicated documents in front of them and puts their their own superannuation documents in place. So they signed those what are some of the reasons why people have got multiple different superannuation accounts?
Helen Hodgson 29:08
Well, the way the system was set up, it was designed so that where there is a an employer who's attached to one of the enterprise agreements or contracts or so on, every employer has their own default superannuation provider. So if you don't make a deliberate decision to send it somewhere else to save it somewhere else, that is where it will go. And this is where you've got this problem where it affects a lot of young people because they're moving from one job to another, there might be casual part time top work, and they don't really understand the superannuation system well enough to know that. This is resulting in them having multiple accounts. As you say, when you go into my gov and you see the list of accounts there, you might say How did I end up with all of these But until you actually look at those when you're setting up your paperwork for your new job, and unless you know that you can take, decide which fund you want it to go to, then you're just going to accept it as part of the system. For a long time, you've usually been able to say that you want to Super pay to a particular fund. There are some exceptions to that rule, like if you're in the public service, but for a long time, we've had the right to choose. But most people aren't really aware enough of the system to actually know that the choice has to be made.
Blaize Pengilly 30:36
Yeah, we would definitely agree with that there, Helen, and I have a bit of a confession. I have four super accounts. And I have about five envelopes are sitting on my desk right now that I've been meaning to open all from different super funds. And I recently checked my my Gov. And yeah, I've got multiple accounts with very dismal amounts of super in there. Because you're right, when I signed up, I didn't really know about super I started a new job and then all of a sudden that sign up to their super. So I'm definitely guilty of that. And I can understand how easy it would be for other people to also fall into the trap, I guess, of having multiple super accounts. Helen, I'm curious about how super works for people that how does it impact on people that work in the gig economy or for people that work as freelancers because the Koreans don't really look like they used to when super was designed. So could you talk us through how super works for people in those shorter term jobs?
Helen Hodgson 31:34
Yeah, well, if you go back to a time before, most of the listeners of this podcast were probably born back in the 1990s, when the system was designed, was far more usual for people to set a career path. And to keep on that career, there might change employers a few times, but their direction was pretty much stable over most of their working life. And so the system was designed to suit people who have long term stable employment. So they're super would come out regularly, it would go into the account, and then when they retired, they would be able to access it. Now, the reason why I say that it's actually based on a proportion of your wages. And if you get regular wages, then you super will come in regularly. The problem is once you start to talk about people in the gig economy, or people with multiple casual part time works, their wages aren't consistent, which means the superannuation isn't consistent. So what will happen is, assuming that your job is one where the employer does have to take super out, you'll have these periods of time when it's low or high. And it's really hard to plan and structure around that. The other problem with the gig economy is that quite often, it's set up in a way, which means the employer doesn't have any obligation to pay super for you and you might not even know this, we've all heard some very sad stories about people who've had accidents that have been seriously injured while they're out delivering food or whatever. And they haven't had any insurance through their employer. It's the same problem with super, if you're not going to class as an employee, or somebody who has regular work where you are providing a service, there's a bit of an exception there, then they don't have to take out any super at all. And you might reach the point where you say, well, I've been working for the last 10 years. And I don't have anything in my super account, because nobody's been putting it in there automatically. And I haven't put anything away for myself. So one of the things I would say is that if you are in that situation, you should always be very aware. And keep an eye on what's happening. And if you've got the spare money, put it aside into super so that you've got it there for the future.
Blaize Pengilly 34:04
Very good advice. Thank you, Helen. Now, I, when I knew that when I received all of those envelopes on my desk from my super providers, I decided to look into it. And I became quite curious about my super. So I obviously went straight to Dr. Google and asked what my super should look like as a 27 year old female. And I saw that the average amount that should be in my super account now was quite a bit less than a male of the same age as me. Why is that?
Helen Hodgson 34:36
Well, if you ask people who designed the system, they will say everybody has the same proportion of their income put into super, doesn't matter whether you're male or female. So this is another one of those inequalities that comes back down to the gender pay gap. Most women are paid less than men from almost the time they enter the workforce. It's noticeable, as you say, as a 27 year old, you could see that in the tables there. Once you get to the point where you're taking time out of work, to have children, even if you don't leave the workforce, you'd probably cut your hours back, you'll probably take periods of parental leave, which aren't covered by super in most industries. And that just brings your balance further and further and further behind. So that when you get to retiring age, the stats show that women have, I think it's about depending on which set of stats you look at the exact age, it's between about 50 and 60%, of the superannuation of a man of the same age.
Blaize Pengilly 35:43
50 or 60%?
Helen Hodgson 35:45
Blaize Pengilly 35:45
Helen Hodgson 35:47
And the reason for that is, you've got to remember how important the compounding of interest in your superannuation actually is. A good part of what is you draw on at the end, when you retire, is actually growth from what you've been putting in. Now, if you take time out of the workforce, when you're 30, then there's 30 years of growth that you miss out on, because you haven't put the money in. If you take time out of the workforce, when you're 50, then it's only 10 years of growth. So losing superannuation contributions at an early point in your career, has a much bigger effect. And that is why women are particularly affected by this because it's in their 30s, that they start to think about having a family.
Dan Jovevski 36:38
Helen, and this is a really great point. My wife is exactly in that position right now where she's taken a bit of time off work, working, actually some contracting roles, and to make sort of ends meet now in our household. What are some of the strategies? What are some of the sort of thinking that's going on, and in order to make the system more equal for women, particularly the more prime earning years of their life?
Helen Hodgson 37:04
Well, the problem with most of the strategies is that it does depend on having a bit of spare cash. And that is always a challenge when you're starting a family and have mortgages and so on to pay for. But some of the things you can think about doing, everybody can put up to $25,000 a year into their superannuation, and get tax concessions for that. So if you look at how much is going in through your employment, you can top that up to $25,000, get a tax deduction for that. And that will boost your superannuation in that particular year. So that's the first thing you should look at doing. The second thing is you can put in contributions where you don't pay tax on them. So these are what we call non concessional contributions. They're basically where, instead of saving the money in a bank account, we know how much interest you're getting on bank accounts these days, you can put it into your super account, and that will have the compounding effect until you reach age 60. But having said that, you can't touch it until you reach retirement age. So that's when you've got to be a little bit careful of if you're saving for a house or something, it may not be appropriate. But if you do put in some non concessional contributions, the government will top that up a bit. So for every $1,000 that you put in, if you meet certain income tests, then they will top that up by another $500. So that's designed to help people who earn less than I think you get the full 500 if you are less than about 37,000. And if you earn less than about 65,000, you get part of it. So that's another good strategy where the government just gives you a top up for no particular effort on your part. A third thing you might think of doing is rolling forward your contributions. So if you haven't put in 25,001 year, and the next year, you find that you're flush with money, because you've had a really good contract or you've received a lump sum from somewhere, then you can top up your contribution and take into account what you didn't put in last year. And that goes for up to five years. But that does depend on having access to a decent amount of money that might suit somebody who's taken some time off their kids comes back to the workforce into a well paid position, then they can start topping it up that way. So there are some strategies, but you always have to look at what's, how much cash you have available, and whether you're happy to have it locked away for a prolonged period of time.
Blaize Pengilly 39:43
So, Helen, that last. The last bit that you just described is that sort of like a roll over. So if you earn too much one year, but a little bit less than next year, you can still top you can top up so it's a rollover effect. So am I right in thinking that a lot of people that have found themselves with reduced hours this You're unemployed this year due to COVID. A lot of people would have that option open to them of topping up their super next year with the rollover effect.
Helen Hodgson 40:07
Yeah, remember, it's it's sort of a roll, you're looking backwards. So next year, if you find that you have got more income coming in than you did this year, then yes, you can go back and you can pick up up to that extra $25,000. So, I mean, let's just say that this year, you put in 10,000. Next year, you put in 15, but you've got some extra cash, then you can put in 10,000 extra next year plus go back and pick up the 15 from this year.
Blaize Pengilly 40:38
I see that's pretty handy.
Helen Hodgson 40:41
Yeah, yeah, it was, it was we were told it was designed to help women going back into the workforce. But I'm a little bit cynical about that. Because most women going back into the workforce after having children aren't working full time. They've got childcare fees to pay. So there's a whole lot of other things going on. But it is useful if you've got access to another source of money.
Dan Jovevski 41:06
That's awesome, Helen. And I've got so many questions here. This is a fascinating topic, because one thing that we really like to drill into on the money bites podcast is some of the behavioral psychology that goes into decision making. And one of the core pieces of research by Thaler and Sunstein is the default option setting. How is the government looked into the behavioral psychology of people, and the default setting of putting money aside into superannuation funds, like the other example that we talked on earlier about all into one fund is the government taking more of a behavioral economics and psychology perspective on superannuation?
Helen Hodgson 41:49
I think they are it that one of the big challenges, every report that's come out in the last 20 years has talked about the lack of engagement, that people have the Superfund, it's something that happens behind the scenes, you sort of know about it, but you're not proactive and active in making decisions. So what the government is working on at the moment is trying to make sure that the defaults don't work against you, and to try and shift the default so that they work in your favor. And in a lot of ways that they're sort of using some of the nudge techniques to sort of say, let's just just make this decision easier than it would be to make the other decision. And in that way, hopefully, they'll get people to her making their decisions, the decisions will work in their favor instead of against them, because the defaults themselves have been shifted along the way. And that I think, is the key thing behind the matching the time the superannuation to the person through their lifetime, instead of the employer, having the say in what fund you go to, I did say earlier that there are some times when you might think it's worth having more than one fund, for example, you might find that the insurance options are much better in one fund than it is in another more suitable for what you're doing in the future. And even though insurance is often regarded as a big expense, in the fees that come out of your fund, you need to take it seriously because the group policies that they buy, if it's a decent policy that suits your circumstances, a group policy, through superfan is often a lot cheaper than going out and buying insurance outside you Superfund. And I'd be very worried that a person who did not have super because they thought I'm too young, nothing will happen. They reach the age of 30. They're married, they have a child and they have some sort of terrible accident, and they're not insured. So you do need to still be very look at the insurance very carefully. But it's about deciding whether it's right for you. And if that means that you're choosing a different fan to the one you started out with, do that, move it across, take the benefits of the new fund and, and work within that framework, because it's something that's often overlooked is to say, oh, why do I have insurance? You have insurance in case something terrible happens?
Dan Jovevski 44:18
Absolutely. I'll go to two sort of final questions from the as we as we look to wrap up here. The first one is what do you think is going to happen to the superannuation funds now that people are going to be making a lot of the contributions to one fund across their career as opposed to say multiple different funds? Do you think this is going to concentrate funds to maybe a few superannuation funds, and maybe some of the other superannuation funds that were relying on people switching and changing jobs to top of their own coffers that will now sort of change? What's your thoughts on that? And the other question off the back of this is, how is technology playing its part now particularly as more younger people embrace platforms like investor granulation apps like rays or spaceship, what's your thoughts on that?
Helen Hodgson 45:07
One of the changes that I didn't mention earlier that's coming through this year is that the government is basically going to start requiring superfans to meet a certain benchmark in terms of the return they provide to their members. And they're going to have to report that. And if they don't meet the benchmark for a couple of consecutive years, then they're not going to be allowed to take on any new members, that that is going to be a really big shift in the system. And the work done by the Productivity Commission shows that there are a number of funds that are underperforming, they're not getting the returns. Sometimes it's because of the fee settings, sometimes it's because they aren't investing in the most appropriate way. But you actually find I think that the fees are a bigger factor in this than investment settings. So I think you're right, when people start to see a noticing coming through from their fund, basically saying, we have to tell you that we have not done a very good job this year, you're going to find people who will start to think seriously about whether they're in the appropriate fund. And this will cause quite a bit of pressure within the industry, there has already been quite a few, quite a big shift in the way that some of the funds work. For example, there are now very few funds that are specific to one employer, they used that used to be quite a big sector of the market, there's not very many of those anymore, because people will go to one of the public offer funds, which are the ones that you could just look up and ask, you know, you should be able to join them without meeting too many criteria. So that sort of shift, I think will continue. And you will see some of the smaller, poor performing funds will find that they're under significant pressure, and merge your solar portfolios either or whatever. And I mean, with the technology, when you talk to a bit of a Trump delight here, I really don't understand how some of these apps work. But if it can help people to engage with their superannuation, then that's the key thing. And I think that most of the apps, if it's one where you're not actually, they're not taking your money, but they are helping you to plan and directing the money into your fund. I think that's a really good thing, because I know of some apps, for example, that will round up your spending and drop it into a fund for you. I'd be very concerned if these were new funds that were set up specifically to do this. But if they're directing it to a fund that already has a good reputation, then go for it even a few dollars here and there can actually make a big difference to your to your super.
Dan Jovevski 48:07
Excellent Helen. And on the eve of the US elections, they might be political slogans out there, but the one that I just thought of in is making super cool again. And I think you definitely informed the audience on understanding and really paying attention to the superannuation, because that's some really long term impacts on the quality of your life, particularly in retirement.
Helen Hodgson 48:27
And the other thing to remember is it really is tied to your life cycle. There will be times in your life, when you your cash needs to go into buying a house or into educating your children. And there'll be other times in your life when you have some spare cash. And you need to use that cycle in the way that works for you as an individual.
Blaize Pengilly 48:49
Very wise advice. Thank you so much, Helen, we really appreciate you taking time out of your busy, busy day to join us and chat all things superannuation. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. And we'll have you anytime again on the Money Bites podcast here a wealth of information. So we really appreciate you spending your time with us today.
Helen Hodgson 49:08
Dan Jovevski 49:08
Blaize Pengilly 49:14
So Dan, how did you find a chat with Helen?
Dan Jovevski 49:16
I found it absolutely amazing. I didn't think superannuation could be such an important topic. And I think Helen did an absolutely fabulous job of really helping us understand some of the use of the past when it comes to superannuation. Lucky Blaize, I'm guilty of having I had seven superannuation accounts, which I had to consolidate recently through my Gov.
Blaize Pengilly 49:35
7?? Oh my goodness.
Dan Jovevski 49:38
And the fact that the government has actually paid a lot of attention to the space I think is really exciting. And as young people now in the workforce, I have one less thing to worry about as they think about their retirement, where hopefully you'll promote some better long term outcomes, particularly for people looking at their retirement and not have to worry about this really complicated space? How about you Blaize?
Blaize Pengilly 50:03
Yeah, I found that really interesting for a long time that Oh, my only understanding of super was that ad with the two people holding their hands cupped, like on top of each other. If you remember that, are the people going up and down the elevator? But now, yeah, it's It was great to reach out to Helen and get a better understanding of superannuation. It's interesting to know that it Yes, everyone gets the same rate. But I never thought about how it would have, you know, women and men having such different supers that's quite shocking. And then also, she was right, I didn't think about people that have bad accidents and can't go back to work, like what happens to people in those situations. So although supers great, I think it's from an outside perspective, it kind of looks like a bit of a blanket fix for everybody. Whereas it, it might need a little money to pay attention to the nuances in people's lives. And there might need to be extra considerations for people that aren't working full time, or people in the gig economy or women who are paid less like I think there's, it's super as a good start. But I definitely think more could be done just based on the information that we've we learned from Helen.
Dan Jovevski 51:14
Blaize Pengilly 51:20
It's week three of our mini budget breakdown series, and today the train stops at the Zero Based budget. So the concept of the Zero Based budget, it's where your income minus all of your expenses equals zero. So with this budget, you have to make sure your expenses match your income each month or week or however often you would like to do it. Another popular term for this budget is will Another popular saying that comes along with this budget I should say is giving every dollar a job, which is great because you know, dollars need jobs. This style is sometimes used or used with or considered similar to the envelope budget, which is what we discussed last week commonly used in conjunction with the cash only method. The important difference with the Zero Based budget is that there's no rollover, so any money left over at the end of the month or week, however often you like to do this budget is accounted for. There's no money that rolls over and is automatically included in next month's budget. So really every dollar you have coming in, is assigned a job every dollar has a purpose. Now the history of this budget, it was coined 50 years ago by a Texas based accounting manager Peter Pfeffer in. So back in the 1970s. It was coined, and he originally came up with the concept for businesses. But the theory has been popularly popular, Larry, I can't say popular, Dan, popularly. The theory has been adapted to managing personal finances too. I'm just not going to bother trying to say popular, I clearly don't know how to use my words. So Dan, what are the steps? And how do you make the Zero Based budget work for you?
Dan Jovevski 53:06
So Blaize, step one, what about the income? income is every dollar every cent that you have coming in? So this is things like wages, child support, money from side hustles, any settling benefits, anything that you're doing on the side, so all that babysitting fees you're getting from looking at the kids over the weekends, all that stuff is included? Any cash that comes to your hand, track it all, anything he saw on Facebook marketplace, Gumtree that's included? Also, let's imagine that you earn $2,000 a month. In that case, everything you spend, say gift or invest should equal to $1,000.
Blaize Pengilly 53:42
All right, step one, track income, got it.
Dan Jovevski 53:45
Step two, what are all your monthly expenses, every single expense, that's everything you put your money towards, and start with the most important things like shelter and food, and then walk you through through the rest. So for example, rent and mortgage obviously, a huge expense that you got for the month transport, gym memberships, everything like daily coffees, entertainment, charity, donations, etc. Yes, that also includes the haircuts, Netflix subscriptions, and so on. So be sure to also include savings giving categories too. So what are some other ones that are a monthly expense, this is also easier with say paying off debt, credit card payments, paying off people that you owe, putting money towards, say, your savings holiday fund and then setting aside cash that you would buy so for gifts or any upcoming events.
Blaize Pengilly 54:38
Okay, so step one, write down your total income. Step two, write down your monthly expenses, everything from the important stuff to the not so important stuff like my Netflix subscription or my haircut. What's step three Dan?
Dan Jovevski 54:52
So the step number three Blaize is when people often get stuck is when you think about here, your income, your expenses. Others are linear all the time. There are seasonal things that happen every single year, where it means our expenses go up, or they go down. So if you take a period like Christmas time blows, this is a huge month of spending and outgoings. So not only is the presence for your own family presents for other family members and friends, etc. But also, people are getting more out and about having more events and buying lots of things. So your expenses are going to go up quite considerably during that period of time. It also includes about the things that come out once a year. So these are things like car retro payments, you know, take into account, say, buying new tires, or servicing a vehicle. And the ones that we always hope was, of course, they get to guarantees and a life, death and taxes, cancer right to any type of other taxes that may be applicable to you. Another big one blows is insurance premiums. If you have the option to pay for annual premiums, please put it in your calendar when those premiums, jus again. And it's actually a very good time to explore any potential savings of those annual expenses, life insurance premiums. Also, the goal is to set aside a little bit each month towards these phase, so when they hit you, you won't feel the pressure when you're saving them all year round. So Dan, my understanding of the seasonal expenses, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this properly, is that if you have a once off payment that occurs once a year, and we'll have a couple of them, like you listed the fees, taxes, etc. Ah, you divide each of that total payment into 12. So that's 12 months, and then each month you're setting aside 112 of that payment. So you've got it saved and ready to go so that when the time comes, and I have to pay for my car insurance next year, I'm not going to be with a big $600 bill all at once, I will have already saved and it will almost be like nothing even happened in my budget, because I've pre plan is that how this zero based budget kind of works with the seasonal planning? Blaize that is a 100% correct. And if you think about in a more practical setting on how to do the routing of all those dolls into the right appropriate places, what people do is they set up different bank accounts, and then allocate that money to those bank accounts. So it becomes really easy to say that these items, this is something that you should check with your current bank and see if you can enable or what people call sub accounts that makes this process really easy.
Blaize Pengilly 57:27
Yeah, great. So automatically happens once you pay comes in. And you don't have to worry about it because everything's already been allocated. Absolutely. Sounds simple. So Dan, what's step four of the Zero Based budget, step one, we've added up our income, step two, and three, we've accounted for all of our expenses, what happens next.
Dan Jovevski 57:46
Blaize with step four, you subtract your income from your total expenses to equal zero, we want the final number to be zeros, every dollar you earn is allocated to something that you want to spend your life. Now it may not equal zero right away, say, for example, get paid $1,000 per week, and you've allocated all your expenses. And you say I have $300 left over. Where's that $300 going to go? Could you be allocating some of those dollars to the panda more debt, so you get quicker? Could you also be allocating more money towards that holiday fund that you and your family are planning to go on? And it's a good time to check in and see, write em to actually have money left over? It's also good to check in and say, am I spending more than I earned to I have that money left over each and every single month that I can now choose where it goes to? Or should I be cutting back my spending to help reach my goals?
Blaize Pengilly 58:39
Okay, so the point of this Step four is to balance it out. So it equals zero. So if you're spending more than you earn, find out where you can cut back. If you're earning more than you spend, which would be ideal, you can then find a job for those dollars that are remaining.
Dan Jovevski 58:54
Blaize Pengilly 58:55
Step five, hit me What is it?
Dan Jovevski 58:58
Step five. And probably the most important part is actually tracking your spending throughout the month. Do you wanna take a guess how most people do this?
Blaize Pengilly 59:06
My guess is that most people don't do it.
Dan Jovevski 59:10
That's right, because most people they have to work and when they do what they do, what are their head. So basically, they have this sort of concept of their budget, this kind of rumor running around in their mind. And whilst it's good to think about money, it isn't really good because the human brain is really designed to become a ledger to track every single expense. We just can't hold that data remember all the time. The best way to do it players is to get it down somewhere. So you can use an app, a spreadsheet, or even if you're struggling to use any of us who things is the humble piece of paper and a pen, however you want to do it. But you need to track to see where everything is going and how it wants to your budget. There's a famous saying that what you don't measure you don't manage and so what needs to get to somewhere where you actually see the numbers and Find out every single thing that you're spending your money on. And importantly, want to check to see if it all adds up. And you want to see it equal, that the zero, where every single dollar has found a home to go to.
Blaize Pengilly 1:00:13
Do you know what I find interesting about the Zero Based budget is that it's not often when you think of money and budgeting that you want it to equal zero. When I think of money and budgeting, I think, Oh, I guess when I have money left over in my account at the end of the pay cycle, which, you know, is a rare occurrence. They are few and far between those weeks. But it's it's just an interesting approach. Because you do have to think about money so differently in in this budget, Dan, how do you use the Zero Based budget, or can you use a zero based budget, if you do casual work, or you have a regular pay?
Dan Jovevski 1:00:50
Blaize, it's very difficult if you are receiving a regular pay packet. And I think what it does is it increases your laser focus on tracking your income and expenses a lot more thoroughly. And so ordinarily, if you've got a passive income, so getting paid regularly, say weekly, quarterly, monthly, it becomes really easy, right, you just pull the income, and you try to get to zero. However, if you're a casual employee, or somebody that might be working part time powers or have a lot of side hustles, it's going to be very difficult to do. And so if you've got a lumpy income coming in, you met and moderate your expenses. But more importantly, you need to keep our eagle eyed view on every single dollar coming in and going out on a much more regular basis and say those people working regular jobs. So hints and tips for those who are working in casual employments, or doing a lot of side hustles is that make your life easier and try to find an app or an Excel spreadsheet that's really super easy to manage, where it becomes almost a fun exercise to start entering those details. But also as war blows, we don't want to take away that it does increase the loading capacity for people to start thinking about their budgets every single day and week. So it could be a really big con for those looking to use zero based budgeting, particularly on a regular payment cycles.
Blaize Pengilly 1:02:10
Yeah, for me, it sounds like too much about that, I can see how it would work for for some people for sure. So should we take a look at the pros and cons of this budget Dan?
Dan Jovevski 1:02:20
Let's do it.
Blaize Pengilly 1:02:21
Alright, so for me, I think a pro of the Zero Based budget is that you know exactly where your money is going. So it's like what you said before about management of money, knowing where things are going, it clearly provides a clear overview of exactly where you're spending your money, or and maybe provide insight into where you're overspending or maybe where you could be investing or saving more. So I think that's a pro of the zero base budget.
Dan Jovevski 1:02:44
Blaize, the thing I really love about zero based budgeting is that it really helps you achieve your goals, because you're really going to be focused on finding out where every single dollar is going. And as with any budget, it's a useful tool to help you achieve financial wellness and understanding your money a lot better, can help you feel more peace, and achieve money's in a lot quicker than say, you have to always feel anxious about where every single dollar is going. It's also hyper accurate. If you're managing the Zero Based budget, will you know it every single dollar is going and how using your money. And a lovely output of that place is going to help you reduce a lot of wasteful spending. When you've got a really heavy focus on understanding where every single dollar is going. Plays however, the cons, what do you what do you think about the Zero Based budget? What comes to mind is potentially something that's not great?
Blaize Pengilly 1:03:36
The cons, okay, so when you first got into the steps and adding up and the math and making all subtract to zero, I will be honest, my eyes rolled, I am a notch strong in the math department. So for me, it sounds pretty complicated. So unless you're a really meticulous person, or unless you have that real, you know, laser eye view, or you're the kind of person that is a perfectionist and really looks at things with detail, I think it might be a little bit complicated and a little bit painful to start. That's I think one of the cons, what are the other cons Dan?
Dan Jovevski 1:04:16
Blaize, I really agree with that point, I think it becomes very time consuming. So if you're a person that is going about your life, you've got 10 million things on the go, you've got, you know, a full time job, you got a side hustle, you know, if you've got kids, say for example, where are you going to find the time say that 30 minutes, potentially per day or per week, that you need to fill in a spreadsheet understand where every single dollar is going. So really, I tend to agree with you boys. If you can't make it easy. If it doesn't work for you, your personality type is likely not going to work for you over the long term. It takes around 21 days to develop a habit and if you don't stick to it within that sort of 21 days, a lot of that sticking around after that. is highly unlikely. However there isn't emerging research that he suggesting that depending on your own personality type, if you're someone that is a group of numbers and very meticulous, say if you belong to say the engineering discipline or you really love math, this could be an excellent way for you to get a much more understanding about your money to help you achieve your long term goals. plays. I know people call me a finance expert, but I seem to be in your bucket too. I hate doing maths. And if I can make that process really easy, that's where I tend to earn towards is removing as much friction from my life as possible. There's another con.
Blaize Pengilly 1:05:37
Yeah, it sounds very detail orientated. So Dan final thoughts, zero base budget, yay or nay?
Dan Jovevski 1:05:46
Blaize, this is a yay for me. And the reason why it's a yay is because even if you don't succeed with this budget of long term, I think the mere fact of giving it a go and see if it does work, you can give you that additional insight into where you're spending your money today and put you onto a path of a better financial future. And so I think, zero base budget for me is, if we were to say, wave, a magic wand and, you know, create a piece of technology in our lives, that could help us budget a lot better. I think the Zero Based budget has gotten to all of those boxes. And if we could imagine what the future would look like, just imagine you've got paid money to your account, say from your employer, and then automatically, all those father's distributed to help you optimize your financial life. I think this has got a lot of promise. But today, we have to do it manually. In the future. I'm really excited about what technology can do. What about this process, to make people achieve a zero based budget and help them achieve their goals, their life? So overall, if you can tolerate the spreadsheets, the pen and paper and develop good habits? I think I'm going to give this a thumbs up. How about you Blaize?
Blaize Pengilly 1:06:59
Interesting? Well, for me, I'm gonna have to disagree with you Dan. Although I can definitely see the merits of the zero base budget for me the initial outlay and then the ongoing, the ongoing time that you need to dedicate to this, the tracking, for me too much math too, time consuming. And I know that I won't stick to it because I know what type of spender I am I love to impulse buy, I love to buy things just because they're fun, or I like to spend buy ridiculous amounts of costumes for parties. You know, like, I know, my spending and my style, personality style, not me. But I definitely say the benefits to allocating dollars, jobs. But I think for me on the lifestyle is probably more the go route buckets, rather than giving every dollar a job. I think it's just a little bit too specific for myself. But I do definitely see the value in in having that real defined view of where you're spending your finances. So no for me, yay from you.
Dan Jovevski 1:08:03
That's why Blaize I think the really important thing that we've touched on today is that really depending on your personality type, you should consider whether any budget plan is right for you and actually matches your own personality type and what you're probably going to respond to the most. So that's an awesome overview about the Zero Based budget.
Blaize Pengilly 1:08:19
Yep. 100% agree with you there, Dan. And so we dive into another budget breakdown next week,
Dan Jovevski 1:08:24
Let's do it Blaize. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Money Bites. If you've got any questions about anything in the realm of financial wellness that you'd like us to cover off at the show, feel free to reach out by Instagram at a handle @getwemoney. Tune in next week to hear the story of Lisa Bull, a British expert who saved over $30,000 in accommodation expenses when she first made the move to Australia. If you're enjoying the show, please do us a favor and share your favorite episode with a friend and spread the word.
Blaize Pengilly 1:08:55
We'll see you next time.
Dan Jovevski 1:08:56
The author is not a financial advisor and the information provided is general in nature and was prepared for information purposes only. This article should not be considered to constitute financial advice. Accordingly, reliance should not be placed on this article as the basis for making an investment, financial or other decision. This information does not take into account your investment objectives, particular needs or financial situation.